Sarah Sowell
Rice University 
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Adrianne Waddell, Associate, Holland & Knight LLP, Austin (30.2° N, 97.7° W)

Adrianne Waddell is an associate at Holland & Knight LLP living in Austin, Texas. After attending Rice University for a degree in civil engineering and receiving a law degree from the University of Texas at Austin, Ms. Waddell worked in the public sector for the Office of the General Counsel and the Public Utility Commission.

The biggest takeaway from my conversation with Ms. Waddell is that college is a time to explore —fields, majors, classes, and ideas— but this exploration doesn’t end once you graduate. Instead Ms. Waddell models how law school, and a law career, can offer an opportunity to explore fields such as energy, environmental policy, and engineering. During her time at Holland & Knight, Ms. Waddle has been able to simultaneously focus on a law specialty that suites her interests, ideas, and skills and explore different corners of law. The excerpts below from this interview shows us how her law career provided her a unique chance to choose a field and explore new ones long after she completed her undergraduate education.

Highlights from the interview:

I would like this interview to aim for how we can inform college students on diverse career paths. What do you think were some influential factors that led to your current position?

Since I was 8, I wanted to be a lawyer, but my path of getting here was nothing traditional, or a straight path. I didn’t really have any lawyers in my family. I would meet them through school events or programs, but I didn’t really have a sense of what that actually looks like in reality. So, I think that the things that kept me going towards this path were pre-law educational opportunities and programs, or having friends with similar interests.

I studied engineering at Rice University because of a pre-college program at University of Texas that encouraged STEM academics. I liked math and science and I thought I could be a lawyer with any degree; so, I ended up pursuing that. At Rice, I also studied environmental law within my degree with Professor Jim Blackburn and took some sustainability courses. So, I started figuring out how to mesh these fields with law. Fortunately, these educational opportunities and programs, or the groups I was in helped me get to my career, even though I did not get there through a straight career path.

Since engineering is an unusual major for a lawyer, could you elaborate on why you picked that and how does that affect your current role?

I honestly had the idea after attending an engineering intro program where I heard engineers can do whatever they want. I focused on environmental and sustainability studies. At the end of college, I thought about whether I wanted to work or go to graduate school or do something else. Finally, I realized I didn’t want to do a master’s in engineering and decided to go to law school. Looking back, I do wish I worked as an engineer for a year or two [after I graduated from Rice].

When you go to law school, you realize that so many people come from different backgrounds. You also have a lot of people that have worked [in different fields such as] the medical field or accounting. I do wish I had worked in a technical field for a little bit because I think it would have given me a different perspective in law school, but also a different perspective on the working world.

When I was in law school, intellectual property law was a big area. Just because I had the technical background, people pushed that a lot on me. And I did explore it. I ended up realizing I really did like the energy side of things. I ended up working for the Railroad Commission here in Austin, which is the state regulatory agency that regulates the oil and gas industry. And from there, I ended up at the Public Utility Commission of Texas, which regulates the electric and other utilities. That was energy- and sustainability-based work. From there, I was hired to my law firm job. I currently work with electric companies, and I have a basic understanding of what’s going on, because I have an engineering background, which gives me credibility with them that, otherwise, I might not have. I have tried to tie what I knew together and what made sense to me naturally.

How do you think your family, your culture, and your community shaped your career path and your interest?

My family has always been very supportive. I didn’t have any lawyers in my family; so, there wasn’t any technical advice or specifics my family could give me. I did learn a lot on my own. But that’s also why I love to speak [to students] like you. I learned so much as I went, but I also had a really good community around me. There was a program that I was in throughout middle school and even high school, and it’s called “Con mi Madre,” which is a Hispanic mother-daughter program, that the Junior League used to run. They were very big on college prep and readiness. They were often the leaders of other Austin community groups. So, I’ve known those people since I was in elementary or middle school and I still see them to this day. They were also founders of the young Hispanic Professional Association of Austin, whose board I joined two years ago, or the Hispanic Bar Association of Austin. They supported me in law school, and now I sit on their board as well. I think they even sponsored a scholarship I had when I was at Rice. I’ve definitely been supported by the community around me in some way, shape, or form in whatever path I’m on at that moment or helping me get to the next step.

What are some of your projects or accomplishments you’re most proud of?

I would say that within the last couple of years, I’ve been taking on more direct roles in case management or handling hearings and depositions firsthand instead of just being the person behind the curtain. You are either writing the pleadings, or doing the prep for a hearing. I think the biggest thing for me is being someone my clients are comfortable calling directly. I’m fortunate that the department I work with fosters that environment and that my clients can call me up directly and say “I need help with this project,” or “we just had this incident happen and need to start preserving evidence, or we’re probably going to get sued on this.” I’m in my sixth year; so, I’m still an associate, but I’ve built up enough trust from my clients.

What kind of projects do you work on? How would you quickly describe your current work?

Anything and everything. My practice encompasses litigation and transactional and regulatory work, and general advice. One day, I could be working on a regulatory project before the state, the next day I could be working on a breach of contract suit for a company that has nothing to do with electricity. Then the next day, I could be looking at someone’s bylaws or board resolutions to help them with corporate governance. Part of that is that we are a general counsel to a certain group of clients. And there are some days where I’m just the middleman trying to get people connected together so that they can do the work I can’t do.

Lately, I’m learning new things, which is nice, because sometimes you can get caught in a monotony of a certain type of work. Fortunately, one thing I’ve been learning to do, as I get higher in my career and move from being an associate to hopefully a partner, is learning how to generate business and pitch myself for new things. I am approaching those things as a learning opportunity. I am trying to learn how to put myself out there more and advance my career in terms of learning new things and generating new business and opportunities.

Taking initiative is definitely a great skill for a college student, and learning as well. What advice do you have for students interested in law?

Contact lawyers and get to know them. Lead informational interviews. Lawyers love to talk in general. I think this equally applies to college students and I’m always happy that students reach out. Our schedules can get very busy; so, I always tell them to be persistent. Taking the initiative speaks volumes to me, especially when someone takes the initiative to contact me. I really do try to always get back to them and make sure we meet. I also think there’s no better way to learn what [lawyers] are doing and what it actually looks like to be a lawyer, what all your options in law are. You would be amazed at how many people with law degrees and aren’t practicing law. I think all those things are so important to figure out. I’ve thought so many times about what I wanted to do with my career in 15 years or 20 years? Do I want to be at a law firm? Do I want to be practicing law in the typical sense? Or do I want to be working at a corporation at a managerial role or compliance role?  There are so many different options.

When I was working at the state, I thought I would work there for two years and then start looking for jobs in a law firm, but I got called within my first year of practice. My mentor that I’d known for four or five years at that point had just moved to this law firm and said that they were looking to hire. They didn’t give me a job off the spot; I still had to interview for it, but my job was never posted online. It was never formally out there. So, your personal network helps you get jobs within this industry.

I think taking the initiative to meet with lawyers, getting to know people, and asking questions will help you learn the ropes basically. Also, take advantage of any opportunity to do a clerkship or even just a day program.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee. This article only aims to share personal opinions and learnings and does not constitute the interviewee’s current or former employer(s)’ position on any of the topics discussed.

Sarah Sowell
Rice University 
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Daniel Cohen, Associate, K&L Gates, Washington, D.C. (38.9° N, 77.0° W)

The reasons many undergraduates plan to go to law school following graduation are numerous; to avoid entering the workplace, to appease their parents who want them to have a second degree, or due to the cultural impacts of the movie Legally Blonde. Whatever the reason, around 15% of college students plan to go to law school. However, many of them are unaware of the nature of the profession and are unsatisfied with their jobs and the momentous student loans that often accompany a law degree. In my interview with Daniel Cohen, I quickly realized that law is not what I expected, but for the right kind of student, it can be the path to a fulfilling career.

Daniel Cohen is an associate at K&L Gates in Washington, D.C., where he works in regulatory compliance for banking institutions and trust companies, digital asset regulation, and public policy counseling. Before starting at K&L Gates, Mr. Cohen attended Rice University where he studied political science and economics and then attended the University of Virginia School of Law. He began his career in law as a legal intern at the Legal Aid Justice Center before interning for the Attorney General of Virginia: Consumer Protection Section. In addition to his work in law, Daniel has also volunteered on the Making Justice Real Campaign for the Legal Aid Society of the District of Columbia and is an advisory board member of Longitude.site.

The first thing that struck me during my interview with Mr. Cohen is how he viewed his education and childhood affecting his current work. He describes how his cultural background encouraged him to work hard in school, stating “many Jewish Americans, my family included, are very keyed in on education early on,” leading him to study hard and have “a lot of opportunities once we thought about college.” Once at Rice University, Mr. Cohen focused on political science and economics, which he feels pointed him towards the legal field.

Once in law school at the University of Virginia, Mr. Cohen focused on the financial services law, a specialization many undergraduates might not consider, despite the abundance of passion for finance among many college students. However, it was not an instant decision. By exploring public policy and economic policy, and “through different things I did at Rice and at UVA and then at K&L Gates, I had different opportunities that have led me to being a financial services and financial technology lawyer.” This role means working with banks, payment apps, cryptocurrency platforms, and other industries at the intersection of finance and technology to help them “think through how they can provide services and products in a way that complies with federal and state laws.” To me, this seems like a perfect niche for anyone interested in law, finance, and technology.

Another important part of our interview was when Mr. Cohen detailed what skills a prospective lawyer should have. One skill Mr. Cohen recommended was communication, a skill necessary to be able to specifically explain complex ideas and strategies to a client. While communication is an important part of the legal field, Mr. Cohen also noted that lawyers spend ample time alone. He describes the field as “a hybrid industry with respect to teamwork,” stating that his diverse work experience in legal aid societies and his private firm among others has showed him how to “spend a lot of time on your own thinking through a problem and a question, doing research, drafting an answer, getting back to the client”, and that pre-law undergraduates should prepare for some solitary work. Still, that does not mean that teamwork is not crucial to success. Mr. Cohen detailed how, after you have figured out a problem by yourself, communicating and perfecting that idea are built around crucial cooperation. Teamwork not only helps solve a problem, but also allows all lawyers to take their individual takes on an issue to synthesize and explain a complex, multifaceted solution to the client with clarity.

For students who think that this career suits their aspirations, Mr. Cohen offered some inner-industry advice on how to enter the field. First, he warns that law school is not the only path to law-adjacent careers, like public policy or business, but is one of the most expensive paths; so, he recommends pondering this decision greatly. For those still excited about law school, choosing the right school, at the right price point, is critical. However, before all this, Cohen reminds students to reach out, to use opportunities like Longitude.site or other resources to connect with industry professionals and build a network. That does not have to be transactional, but it allows experienced professionals to assist newer ones as a way of paying it forward. No matter what career or educational path one takes, “do whatever makes you happy, particularly when it comes to giving back to the community,” look for ways to give back, and “follow that passion throughout your life.”

Highlights from the interview

How did your childhood or cultural background and values affect your career path?

I’m a third generation American on my mom’s side and fourth generation on my dad’s side. In some ways, we have an American immigrants’ story, focusing on hard work and education. Many Jewish Americans, my family included, are very keyed in on education early on. So, my older brother and I learned to study hard, did our homework, and always made sure to be really engaged with our classes, to prioritize that above all other things, and to do as well as we could. That gave us a lot of opportunities once we thought about college. I wanted to go to a school that was engaging, that had a lot of opportunities, particularly in public policy; so, the Baker Institute at Rice University really caught my eye. I wanted to go to a place where kids were smart and serious. So, I think Rice fit that mold well and into this career of being a lawyer and policy advisor. I was always interested in government growing up. At Rice, I focused on political science and economics, and it was a natural lead into a legal career. At the University of Virginia [UVA] School of Law, which has a great access to the DC market, I decided I wanted to be a financial services lawyer. I wanted to work in public policy and also found economic policy interesting. Through different things I did at Rice and at UVA and then at K&L Gates, I had different opportunities that have led me to being a financial services and financial technology lawyer. So, that’s where I am now.

In your time at Rice or even at law school, were there any specific organizations or experiences that shaped your career path?

The Baker Institute, particularly the Baker Institute Student Forum, played a big role in my development at Rice. When I was a freshman, I joined the group and volunteered to organize events. I brought an activist minister named Jim Wallis to campus at the beginning of my sophomore year. That was my first introduction into fundraising, networking, public policy forums, and realizing how hard it could be to make the ideas happen. So, that event turned out to be very successful. We had hundreds of people come, it was a good dialogue. That got me excited about public policy and social thought, and I stuck with the organization. I was president for a couple of years. Also, at Lovett College, where I was a student, and president in my senior year, I was always involved in government and went to events and met people. It was great to meet students from every grade, every major, every background. It really changed the way I think. One of my best friends who I still talk with, and some of my colleagues who I work with in the legal sphere or in related business ventures are from college. And then going to law school was critical to what I do now. Law is a very prestige-oriented field. There are tiers; where you go to school and how well you do at that school don’t dictate but help inform what firms you can go to and what opportunities you have. Going to the UVA helped me start working at [K&L Gates], and being at this firm has given me a lot of opportunities in my career early on.

Could you give an example of the type of projects you work on? And maybe a quick rundown of your typical day?

I have a wide portfolio that focuses mostly on what we call financial services. My clients range from big banks to financial technology companies such as payments apps, and cryptocurrency platforms like Coinbase that help you buy bitcoin and other digital assets. I advise those companies on their regulatory compliance and risk, help them think through how they can provide services and products in a way that complies with federal and state laws. I also work with cannabis trade associations to help promote normalization of cannabis federal policy, particularly in banking. In most states, medical marijuana is legal, and a lot of companies are licensed and registered to provide those products, but they can’t access banks because marijuana is still illegal federally; so, I work with them on lobbying Congress. I also work with a wide range of food companies on insurance claims; whenever they have a problem with their product, like a recall, I help them recover funds so that they can keep operating, keep people employed, and stay in business. So, it’s a wide range of things, and as a result, I don’t have a typical day. But some of the things I generally do are conference calls with clients to help them reach out to a member of Congress or their staff, draft a comment letter if a federal agency is proposing a rule to govern how the client operates, or answer questions about what a certain regulation requires the client to do. I also advise them on what’s happening in Congress, and I draft contracts and settlement agreements.

What skills do you think are important to your job?

Communication. Fundamentally, written and verbal communication, trying to take complex, ambiguous, confusing or incomplete concepts in law or politics, and helping clients (a) understand them, and (b) apply some strategies to overcome them. Sometimes, it’s advising the client on options of how to provide a product; for example, if you want to provide product A, then we need to get you a license, or if you want to provide product B, you can partner with someone who already has that license, or you can offer this product by actually providing a supplementary kind of service and letting someone else provide the product itself.

Would you say that teamwork is very important to your job? And what kind of dynamics do you try to foster on any team you are in?

Lawyering is a hybrid industry with respect to teamwork. Private practice is the only private sector experience I have had. I’ve not worked for a company other than my law firm or in a non-legal setting. In college and law school, I did internships in a wide range of things, in legal aid societies, at the Virginia Attorney General’s office, different government agencies, and a think tank. My experience is not completely limited to the law, but internships only tell you so much. And I say that as a preface because in law, you spend a lot of time on your own thinking through a problem and a question, doing research, drafting an answer, getting back to the client. But once you’ve done that, teamwork is critical, especially in the public policy realm. Because you have to convince a lot of people on what to do. So, we often have internal calls and get on the same page about strategy. Because when we talk to the client, we have to be uniform. Because if we share disjointed perspectives, then the client will be confused. As an example, I work with several trade associations that represent lots of individual companies, and their goal is to get all those companies on board with a particular message. Our job is getting the trade association and its members on board, and it takes a lot of effort to communicate on calls, in emails, texts, and just to be ready to answer questions whenever needed.

What changes or challenges do you foresee in your industry?

There are more firms and entities that are trying to get into the legal field, and that creates competition for business, competition on pricing within industries to respond to what new rules are happening or to shape them. So, there are more voices coming up to advise and put forth ideas.

I think, in this remote era, there’s going to be a lot of conversation about how much can we really work from home after the pandemic, and how much do we need to be in person. So there’s going to be pressure on reducing real estate holdings and new office space and things. I hope we don’t go too far. That’s one risk I foresee because [legal] work in a sense can be done from anywhere. Because what I do is what we’re doing now. I get on a Zoom call, and I talk to you, I write a memo at my desk, on my laptop. But I think something is lost if you completely lose the element of the physical coming together. So I do see a pressure there, of too much focus on remote work, and that puts a lot of stress on people’s time, because it’s much harder to unplug. And I think it puts a lot of dependency on technology. You know, laptops always got to be up, the programs you use always have to be working really well. And as we know, like, Zoom for business, or WebEx, or other things don’t always work great. Whereas if we’re in person, I can always just walk to your office and have a conversation. I think [another] risk is overly siloing people, especially for work from home, it’s just too easy to just work with people you always work with, because you don’t see other people, right? It’s out of sight, out of mind. And you don’t think to yourself, even though we have email, and I could email anyone, there’s just too much going on in your [own] silo [and] [in] your own home. I think gets people thinking let me just rely on the people I already work with. So I figured a way of actually discourages outreach and connectivity and synergy with other employees. Even though, you could theoretically talk to anyone anywhere in the world via zoom and via email, so I think it’s a careful balance of those two.

How do you think that your volunteering or experience at internships has affected your outlook on your industry?

I think the most relevant experiences, as for my outlook on the industry, is working with the legal aid organizations. Cumulatively, I worked for a year and a half with the Legal Aid Justice Center in Charlottesville. I also worked for a semester at the Virginia Attorney General’s office. Neither of those are private entities or businesses competing for profits, but they are entities that shape what the private sector can do. The Attorney General brings different cases against certain businesses or entities creating the need for defense attorneys, and legal aid provides certain services to low income communities and people who need legal aid. That creates opportunities for private law firms to assist. We have an ethical duty as lawyers to do pro bono work, but it’s very helpful to partner with a legal aid attorney for doing pro bono work because they have the expertise, they have connections with the community, they have their trust. So, working there helped inform my view of pro bono work and why it’s so important. In my own practice, I have worked with a bunch of organizations, such as Kids in Need of Defense (KIND). Having worked with those organizations directly helped me appreciate the importance of letting them take the lead, but also the importance of helping them because they are so overworked and they need so much more aid.

What advice would you give students looking to go into your field?

Really think about whether you want to practice law or do something that’s law related such as public policy, social work, community organizing, strategy. Strategy can be in the private sector, in the philanthropic sector, or government sector. A lot of people think that just having a law degree is inherently good. And there’s some truth to that. But as the world becomes more competitive, and school continues to be more expensive, just being credentialed for the sake of credential is not necessarily the best idea. You should be strategic. I’m a big fan of higher education. I think advanced degrees can be good. But you should get it because it makes sense. Law is a protected industry; you need to pass a bar exam to be able to practice law. And to do that in almost every state, you have to go to law school. So, if you’re going to go to law school, you should practice law in some form, at least for a while, and really learn a field, learn the skills, understand how to think in practice, like a lawyer, and then go do something else. But if you just want to go to law school, and then start a business, then go to business school, or do something else. You want to go to the best school you can because it opens the most doors. But you don’t want to create an unsustainable amount of debt for yourself, especially if you don’t want to do private practice. So, think about the finances. Think about what you like to do. Do you like to be around people? Or do you like to mostly think and write on your own? For the latter, there are some law practices that you can go into. Think about your personality. Do you like to fight? Do you like to argue, do you like to be right? Then litigation might be good for you. If you’re conflict averse and you’d rather people get along, there are fields of law that are useful for that, but law is at least tacitly aggressive in all fields. So, if you really don’t like fighting, then this is probably not the field for you.

Is there anything else you’d like to mention before we leave?

I encourage students to do what you’re doing, to reach out to professionals. Use Rice, use Longitude.site, and the Houston area connections to your benefit. There are great opportunities. You need to have the goods, but you also need to be networking with people so that people know who you are. There are so many people out there in a position of power, but if they don’t know who you are, they can’t give you a job or an opportunity. So, meet people, stay on good terms with people. It doesn’t mean you have to be best friends with everyone. But check in with people every couple of months and keep relationships alive. When people need help, help them. When it’s your turn, they’ll help you. I think a lot of people are concerned that they’ll be too transactional. Don’t view people as tools, but view the situation as an opportunity to help others and opportunity for them to help you. When you’re in a position of power, make sure that you’re looking out for other people, someone that you can give a chance to. And do whatever makes you happy, particularly when it comes to giving back to the community whether that means political campaigns, social activism, or volunteering, social work. Definitely follow that passion throughout your life because there’s always going to be plenty of work to do whatever your employer is; there’s always going to be something to do. It’s too easy to let those opportunities to go by until it’s too late. So, stay anchored in that.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee. This article only aims to share personal opinions and learnings and does not constitute the interviewee’s current or former employer(s)’ position on any of the topics discussed.

Satoshi Mizutani
University of California, Los Angeles
Los Angeles (34.0° N, 118.2° W)

featuring Brian Michael Cooper, Sports, Entertainment, and Media Attorney, Frost Brown Todd, Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

Let me start off by saying that it was an absolute privilege to interview Brian Michael Cooper, who is a partner at Frost Brown Todd and a member of the firm’s Entertainment, Media, and Sports Practice. He has previously served as President of the XFL Houston Roughnecks, Senior Associate Athletic Director at Rice University, and President of the NBA G-League Rio Grande Valley Vipers. Without the platform of Longitude.site, I would not have been able to connect with such an accomplished person and I am deeply thankful for that. I highly encourage everyone to read the transcript because I have done several interviews like this and his insights are unparalleled. It will be very helpful regardless of the industry you are interested in, not just the sports.

You’ve probably heard this phrase from Steve Job’s commencement speech at Stanford University several times: “You’ve got to find what you love.” It’s a testament to one’s need to be passionate about what you do in order to be successful. For some people, that comes easy. Whether it’s in the field of medicine or entrepreneurship, there are people who know exactly what they want to do as soon as they are done with college. However, a lot of students haven’t really figured out their life plan at that point and feel somewhat stressed that they are following the “traditional” path.

I was the latter. I’ve always loved sports, but I didn’t know how I could get into the industry, and honestly speaking, I did not know if I wanted to work in sports knowing what I can make in finance. However, after working 6.5 years in finance, I can truly say that working in sports is what I want to pursue as my next career and I have no regrets leaving finance. If you have doubts about whether your interest is worthy of making it your career, I think it’s perfectly fine to go with your alternative interest. If it is truly your passion, you will eventually find a way to get there. The fact that you have doubts about it means that it might not actually be your dream, and the initial path, which seems like it is taking you away from your interest, might actually work out in your favor. Brian was always interested in sports, but he initially thought that he either had to be a player or a coach to work in sports. He decided to pursue his interest in government and attended Harvard Kennedy School of Government and Columbia Law School to achieve that, but after realizing that there was a path that he could take to sports that complemented his skillset while he was at graduate school, he made the decision to follow his passion and practice sports law after graduating from law school. The knowledge he gained from a path that was not initially intended to lead to sports ended up paying a huge dividend for him.

The biggest takeaway I had from this interview was simple but powerful: Once you find your passion, you need to follow it, never give yourself an excuse not to, and then go the extra miles. Throughout his career, Brian refused to accept what seemed like uncontrollable external factors that would deter many people away from pursuing their goal. For example, when he applied to become the team president of the Rio Grande Valley Vipers, people said he would be unlikely to get the role given his lack of experience in an executive position that oversaw business operations.  However, instead of listening to other people’s “gating techniques,” he instead focused on what he could do to prove that he is capable of performing such a task. He ended up putting together an eight-page analysis of the team and an action plan for what he would do to improve the team. Through that, he was able to show that he was more capable of leading the team than other candidates. This lesson is important regardless of what you decide to pursue in the future.

As you move up in your career, it is very likely that your resume itself will not get you to the new roles. I’ve interviewed many candidates, and I can tell you that most of them have a degree from top tier universities, and most have a stellar work experience that shows that they are competent for the role that they are pursuing. Obviously, culture fit and luck are huge factors as well, but what sets someone apart is the willingness to go the extra mile. Brian said that he would love to see candidates who take the time to do research on the role that they are applying for and have a clear roadmap on how they plan to accomplish their goals. That itself would mean more for the employers than your credentials in some cases, as proven by Brian himself. It is easy to say that you can’t apply for a role that you want to pursue because you don’t have the experience they look for, but Brian taught me that there is always a way and given the advancement in connectivity through technology, it is much easier to get noticed if you put in the effort.

There are so many other takeaways, such as how you overcome a lack of branding power to acquire new clients or businesses, which would be helpful for aspiring entrepreneurs, but I truly think that it would be best to read them in Brian’s words in the excerpts below. My final thought is the reminder to pursue a goal that you might have given up on due to external factors that you thought you could not overcome, and remember that the world is your oyster.

Highlights from the interview:      

When did you first envision yourself as being involved in sports?

I played sports in high school and for a couple years in college. I played football at Cornell University where I was a political science major. At the time I thought that to be involved in sports business, you either have to be a player or a coach, and there are not many avenues towards getting there. I also had equal passion for government and politics, so after graduating from Cornell, I worked for a congressman for a year and then went to the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University while also working toward a law degree at Columbia University. At Harvard, my first sports-related assignment was an antitrust analysis of Proposition 48, an NCAA rule designed to regulate academic standards for participating in athletics.  In addition, at the Kennedy School, students also complete a project called a Policy Analysis Exercise (PAE). The focus of my PAE was midnight basketball, a policy program designed to assist kids as a safe haven and alternative to the streets. These basketball leagues also had an educational component. The sponsor for my PAE on midnight basketball was the NBA. After those projects, I thought there might be an opportunity for me to switch from a government-focused career to a sports-focused one. When I got to Columbia Law School, I was able to connect with a mentor in law school who was a sports lawyer who helped me identify the law firms that specialized in sports.  I was able to secure the opportunity to work at Proskauer Rose, a preeminent sports law firm, which, among other clients, represented the NBA, NHL, ATP Tennis, and MLS. I was fortunate to get a clerkship with Proskauer and then ultimately a full-time job starting out of law school. That’s how I started my career working with sports entities. 

What advice would you give to students that are aspiring to get into sports industry? What is the best way to get your foot through the door?

The most important thing is networking. The sports industry is a high-demand industry that values relationships. As president of a sports team, if I needed a new staff member, I would want that person to get up to speed fairly quickly. So, I found myself relying upon my existing network of individuals to quickly find people that fit into my staff.  To that end, I advise students to begin industry networking while in college and grad school, using that time to build some really meaningful contacts in the industry.

Internships are also great – paid or unpaid (with applicable school course credit). Many internships in sports are unpaid; however, those internships provide valuable experience.

And in the last 20 years, the internet has become a great equalizer because it allows for the acceleration of reputation and skill that may have taken longer to attain in the past.  One way to get noticed is by writing about sports business issues or sports legal issues in a blog or in a commentary. There are people who have done that and built careers at a faster pace because they were able to put together very compelling content as law students and as young lawyers to attract the attention of potential clients.

You should also put together a roadmap of where you want to be 5 to 10 years from now. Let’s say you want to be the general manager of an NBA team 10 years from now. That will require certain skills such as the skill to scout talent, the ability to read and understand contracts, and the ability to negotiate. So, you should start building all those skills that you will need 10 years from now.

You started your career as a sports attorney, but you also served as director of sports programming for Dish Network and as president of an XFL football team in Houston. How did you handle the work beyond your initial expertise and what did you do to overcome the challenges while you were president?

In 2008, I had been practicing law for about 10 years, I had been an agent representing players, and I’d been advising companies on business decisions and transactions related to sports. [That year], a colleague made me aware of an opportunity to become the team president of an NBA D-League team in Rio Grande Valley, Texas. The team was affiliated with three NBA teams: the Houston Rockets, New Orleans Hornets, and Cleveland Cavaliers. The challenge was that I’d been practicing law for 10 years and I had not been in an executive position. A colleague in the industry said the team was probably looking for a minor league baseball team president with executive experience. So, I needed to separate myself [from the other applicants]. I put together an eight-page analysis of the team, an action plan for how I saw the team, what I would do as president, and how I would build the business. I had four action items for the business: One of the items was to build closer ties with the NBA. Second, I also proposed marketing the team to underrepresented groups of consumers. Third, I said we would establish a greater presence in the community with outreach projects and grassroots marketing. Finally, I said we would make better use of technology and use tech to create projects that were a little bit outside the box. I set up that roadmap and said this is what I plan to do with the team; here are my goals, guideposts, and objectives; and you can ask me questions about how this will work. They called me for a face-to-face meeting in the Rio Grande Valley and with that plan, ultimately, I was named president of the team.  People will use gating techniques to shut you down no matter what, and one gating technique is to say that you don’t have the background that they’re looking for. Just because you haven’t technically held that title, it doesn’t mean that you don’t have the skills. I would love to get such a roadmap from a candidate because it means they took the time to learn about my business, they are invested in its success, and they’ve already outlined how they’ll get there. A lot of times candidates are scared of achieving greatness by not putting together a strategic plan and saying, “I can do this job and here’s I’m going to show you how I can do it.”

What was your roadmap when you worked as the president of an XFL team, which was a relatively brand-new organization? Do you have any advice for aspiring entrepreneurs on how to go against the Goliaths of the industry? 

I like being the underdog. I think it allows for us to avoid being complacent. When I ran teams in the NBA G-League and XFL, I told my staff that we would present a product for which we would not make excuses. What I meant was we would run our operations in a first-class manner and similar to major leagues like the NFL or the NBA. We would build and execute projects as if we were a member of either of those leagues. When you do that, that gets you into a mindset that, while you’re the underdog, you believe that you can deliver the same level of service that a more established brand could provide. It’s not easy, it requires more work, but the motivation is there and you know how to get those things done. For example, teams in major leagues who have established brands over decades have an easier time reaching sponsors and consumers.  In leagues that are not as established, you have to explain to sponsors and consumers why your product is valuable enough to meet their needs. Starting out, you’re looking for brands and partners. I tend to look for partners who are in a similar boat, who are equally scrappy, who are equally trying to make it to that next level. When your affiliation with those partners helps them get to that next level, it’s great to see them establish their brand. Never losing the underdog nature, but at the same time, never making excuses for it, is really the key in my opinion. 

Can you get into specifics of trying to convince your partner that advertising with your team would be more beneficial for their company than for an NBA team?

Yes, I can give you an example. At the beginning of a deal negotiation with an insurance company that was reluctant to make deals in general, we started a relationship with small projects, and we listened to what they wanted. We didn’t come in with our own pre-ordained idea of what they would want. A lot of times, you’ll see people who are pushing in that space to tell the partner or consumer what they want. However, the best approach is to listen first – find out what they want, what they need, and what’s important to them. 

First, build the initial relationship and then make sure you do well by that client not to lose them. That holds true for both sports and law. For example, we had a client who was originally not willing to do work with any brand, not just us. We started with a dialogue and we were able to talk with them about what they wanted and needed. We then gave them a much more personalized plan to meet their needs. At the end, we exceeded their expectations and that developed into a really good relationship. 

Do you foresee any specific challenges in your industry in the near future, whether it is technology-related or not?

Right now, we’re in the middle of the largest challenge that the sports industry has faced. Sports, like entertainment, is a spectator-driven entity. Live events are not happening right now and will not happen anytime soon or they will happen in a limited scale. We will not see a return to pre-COVID attendance numbers until there’s a vaccine, that vaccine is considered to be widely effective, and people feel comfortable taking it. That may be another 12–18 months away.

But I think the sports industry is going to rise to those challenges and adapt as needed. We will see more emphasis placed on digital interactions with fans from a remote location such as virtual hangouts, conferences, and Q&A sessions with players, coaches, and executives. Esports is being built for digital distribution and digital production. I think we will see greater emphasis on projects like fantasy football. Performance-based sites will start taking a more prominent role as well.

Even when individuals return to sports events, the facilities will be different. The way to manage a crowd will be different and there will be increased operational costs associated with protecting and facilitating those crowds. We’ll also see a shift in technology as well, especially in wearable device technology. At a PGA tournament in Detroit a few weeks ago, one of the wearable fitness wristbands worn by a golfer identified changes in the golfer’s breathing that resulted in the early detection of a positive test for COVID. Analytical measurements may become a bit more prominent down the road where they will take on an additional role in how the game is played, how the game is made, and how the game is analyzed. It will be very interesting to see these advances going forward. 

One big legal issue with these wearable devices is the privacy of the players or whether they get an unfair advantage over negotiations by having all these data that relate to their personal health? How will the teams manage these data from wearable devices?

Yes, there may be a legal fight in the future regarding questions of privacy.  However, I believe that the teams and players will figure out how to address their interests to their mutual benefit, managing and balancing the advantages and disadvantages of using such technology.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee. This article only aims to share personal opinions and learnings and does not constitute the interviewee’s current or former employer(s)’ position on any of the topics discussed.

Rachel Carlton
Rice University
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Glory Nwaugbala, Corporate Associate, Wilmer Hale, New York (40.7° N, 74.0° W)

To most kids, the most unbreakable promises are made between pinkies; for young Glory Nwaugbala, TV shows like Law and Order showed her the greater power of contracts and inspired her to become a lawyer.

Glory Nwaugbala is a corporate associate at Wilmer Hale, an international law firm that focuses on the intersection of government, technology, and business. In her role, Nwaugbala provides legal counsel to private and public companies on matters such as technology transactions, licensing agreements, venture capital financings, and general corporate governance. Nwaugbala graduated with a juris doctorate from Columbia Law School and a master of laws from University College London; as an undergraduate she double majored and received a bachelor of arts with honors in political science, and psychology from Rice University. During our video call, I spoke with Nwaugbala as she detailed her career path with the backdrop of an eerily quiet New York City.

Nwaugbala had known she wanted to be a lawyer from a young age. Aside from an interest aroused by legal shows, Nwaugbala’s love of languages, writing, and eventually business carried her to a pre-law track at Rice University. There, after a brief detour as a pre-med, she was reassured of her legal inclinations and gained entrance into her number one choice for law school – Columbia University. Nwaugbala told me the common tale of the importance of first year, or “1L,” law school grades that are the basis of landing a summer internship at a law firm. With only one year of classes under one’s belt, Nwaugbala said that law firms aren’t expecting 1L’s to be full-fledged attorneys just yet.

“I think it’s more about seeing the potential there and the base skillsets of a good attorney,” Nwaugbala said. “So that’s someone who listens, someone who takes initiative, someone who has questions and is smart about their questions… you’re looking for curiosity, you’re looking for someone who’s…  a go-getter… that’s what [a firm] really look[s] for when they interview you.”

After law school, Nwaugbala returned to the same firm from her 1L summer to work on private equity mergers and acquisitions, or PE M&A. Both as an intern and as a young attorney, Nwaugbala found herself dabbling in a little bit of everything and enjoyed exploring the law of business. Later on, she began focusing on healthcare regulation. But Nwaugbala was not content following the same path for long. Through a recruitment process, Nwaugbala made the move to WilmerHale for the opportunity to practice start-up work and M&A in a broader range of industries.

To someone like me, entrepreneurship and law didn’t seem like the most natural pairing. With my past experience in a semi-start-up environment, the fast-paced, go-go-go nature of the business and the employees would feel at odds with regulation. However, Nwaugbala pointed to the collaborative partnerships she has had with different start-ups since working at WilmerHale that cater to her interest in business.

“When you work with a startup, you really get to work with them from the beginning,” Nwaugbala said. “That’s drafting that corporation’s documents, talking to them about how they want to do their shares or the structure of their company… you really get to see how a company is built from the ground up from a legal perspective, and even sometimes from the business perspective. There is the reward of being part of building something new, and hopefully seeing that new company you start years down the road become the next really successful company.”

At some point I asked Nwaugbala for the secret to her personal success – from Rice, to Columbia, to the highly prestigious WilmerHale, I figured she had some way of honing her talents.  In return, she offered one particularly important characteristic – grace.

“To be a successful attorney, you have to have a little bit of grace for yourself, especially when you’re in a very high achieving, high-pressure environment,” Nwaugbala said. “Every once in a while you’re going to make mistakes. It’s just the nature of the game. But having that grace for yourself to say I made a mistake, take a breath, and then… try again… that above all is a mark of a very successful attorney, because it’s an attorney who still remembers that they’re human.”

As for other important characteristics for a lawyer, Nwaugbala mentioned curiosity, creativity, and the ability to listen. To her younger self and to current college students, she said to enjoy the journey.

“It’s really easy – especially once you get to law school – to decide, okay, this is what I do this year, then the next year has to be this, and this, and it just becomes a series of timetables,” Nwaugbala said.  “Yes… there are deadlines and things that need to be done at an appropriate time. But also, enjoy the journey. It goes by really fast.”

Highlights from the interview:

How did you become interested in practicing law?

I couldn’t tell you exactly. I just know that I remember watching this law show as a kid, and I can’t remember if it was Law and Order, or something like that, but I remember watching the show where there’s a contract, and people make promises that are written on paper, and I remember being fascinated by the idea that if two parties sign a written document, then all of a sudden people have to keep their promises. So, it’s better than a pinkie swear, is how I kind of thought about it.

And then as I got a little older, I enjoyed the concept of business. I enjoyed being able to build something, be entrepreneurial, and see how the work that you put in can become something good, whether it’s a monetary situation, or whether it’s a really good work product that you can really see building. And so, a part of me said, okay, I like that, but I don’t want to be an accountant. How do I get a chance to work with businesses and see the entrepreneurial spirit without having to be the accountant, while also joining together my love for words? That’s how becoming a business lawyer of some sort came to mind.

What kind of work did they expect you to be able to do as a 1L summer associate?

It’s not that they really expect you to know the law in the sense that you’re supposed to come out a full-fledged attorney ready to go. I think it’s more about seeing the potential there and the base skillsets of a good attorney. That’s someone who listens, someone who takes initiative, someone who has questions and is smart about their questions. That means anything from seeing something that’s not quite right, maybe there are two documents that are supposed to work together, and you’re noticing that there’s a glaring provision in the second document that doesn’t really make sense. Are you the type that wants to ask questions about why this doesn’t make sense, and dig a little deeper to see if there’s a reason why this second document might be a little different than the first, but why they still work together? You’re looking for initiative, you’re looking for curiosity, you’re looking for someone who’s a go-getter, and that’s what they really look for when they interview you before giving you a summer associate position.

At that first law firm when you were actually a full-fledged attorney, what kind of work were you doing specifically? Like day-to-day?

I was specifically doing private equity M&A, meaning mergers and acquisitions work with mostly private equity companies, and then over time I started doing more of the healthcare aspects of that work. There are some private equity firms who acquire medical businesses, and when you do that you enter into the realm of healthcare regulation and law, and since it’s a heavily regulated industry, you want someone who really knows what’s going on and who focuses their practice that way. Over time, I started veering towards that and really enjoyed it while I was doing it. However, later on I thought, “Oh, I kind of want to do more, I want to see what else is out there.” Again I think that’s the exploratory side of me, which prompted my move to my current law firm where I have the opportunity to continue my private equity work, but also broaden my practice to startup and venture capital work.  There’s a smaller subset of firms that really do startup and venture capital work, and that’s what I wanted to try, and so I’m very grateful that I’m now able to do that at my current firm. 

Could you characterize a little bit for me what it’s like doing law for startups as opposed to other things you have done?

When you work with a startup, you really get to work with them from the beginning. That’s drafting that corporation’s documents, talking to them about how they want to do their shares or the structure of their company. You really get to see how a company is built from the ground up from a legal perspective, and even sometimes from the business perspective because your clients might come to you with an idea or issue and they’re speaking like business people. Some of them are MBAs, some of them are not, but they’re definitely approaching the conversation from a business point of view. However, you get to hear that and then translate it into what that means legally. I guess in a very simple way, I’d say the difference is when you work with a very large established company, it’s kind of a well-oiled machine. Everyone knows what they’re doing, everyone knows their place, and there is a certain level of niceness to that because you know exactly what to do, where to do it, and there’s a pace that’s set. But when you work with a startup, it’s not a well-oiled machine because it’s brand new. There’s still kinks in it, there’s still things that we’re trying to work out, but there is the reward of being part of building something new, and hopefully seeing that new company you start years down the road become the next really successful company that is the new well-oiled machine. 

What would you say to a younger you?

I would say three things. Number one, maintain the characteristics of grace, creativity, curiosity, and being a listener. I think of the four of those, I would highlight to my younger self and to anyone in my younger self’s position, to really not discount that grace. I think those of us who come from Rice, we come from an amazing academic and amazing interpersonal environment, and there comes a point sometimes where you feel like you also have to be amazing all the time, and sometimes you’re not, and that’s okay. We’re human, it happens. Keep grace for yourself. Number two, we should be open to failing because sometimes we find out what works best for us after trying something and realizing that that’s not for us. So me, I did that pre-med thing for a minute and emphatically decided, “No, mm-mm, that’s not for me.” I’ve had some friends who tried corporate work and realized that they’re more of a litigator. On the other side of that, when you’re in law school, there are many opportunities to take human rights clinics or externships such as clerking at a court or taking that one class that you think is wonky. But if it catches your fancy, try it! All you end up doing is finding out if it works for you or if it doesn’t work for you, that’s ultimately what really happens. So, don’t be afraid to fail. And then number three, which is last but not least, enjoy the journey. It’s really easy, especially once you get to law school, to decide, okay, this is what I do this year, then the next year has to be this, and this, and it just becomes a series of timetables. Yes, obey the timetable, there are deadlines and there are things that need to be done at an appropriate time, but also enjoy the journey, it goes by really fast, I mean, look at us now. To me, I was you yesterday, you know? 

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee. This article only aims to share personal opinions and learnings and does not constitute the interviewee’s current or former employer(s)’ position on any of the topics discussed.

Rachel Carlton
Rice University
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Cindy Dinh, Litigation Associate, Mayer Brown LLP, Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

If you’re looking for a way to do it all, ask Cindy Dinh for advice.

Cindy Dinh is a Litigation Associate at Mayer Brown LLP, a global law firm that advises large companies and financial institutions. At Mayer Brown, she practices civil litigation and works directly with clients in issues ranging from contract disputes to bankruptcy and insurance matters. Dinh graduated with a juris doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law and a master in public administration from the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University; as an undergraduate she received a bachelor of arts in sociology and health policy from Rice University. In our video call, I got the opportunity to sit back and listen—suffice to say, Ms. Dinh has quite the resume.

Long before becoming a lawyer at one of the world’s largest law firms, Dinh grew up interested in writing and healthcare and wanted to be a pediatrician. But after realizing in high school that she liked learning about medicine more than the idea of practicing it, she chose to study medical sociology at Rice University. There, Dinh thrived by following her passions both in and out of the classroom. From researching Asian American and Latinx health disparities to volunteering with voter outreach and registration for the Asian American community in Houston, Dinh played an active role in shaping her own interests in public policy. She also volunteered at the Harris County clerk’s office to do outreach work after her senior year, which led to her first job out of college. It surprised me when she said how easy it was to get a job with the clerk’s office, but it also served as a reminder of how often I limited myself in college by not putting myself out there more often.

This was a common theme throughout my conversation with Dinh. I found myself in awe at how much she has been able to accomplish in such a short time in her career and at Rice. As a college student, it’s easy to feel like school material doesn’t feel applicable to the real world, so Dinh’s extracurriculars show the value of getting involved. One program that she participated in ended up shaping her decision to get a public policy degree along with her law degree.

“I knew that I was going to pursue a law and public policy degree, and that came from some of the enrichment programs I participated in my junior year.” Dinh said. “One [program] called PPIA, Public Policy International Affairs motivated me to pursue a joint degree…PPIA’s mission is to get more students from diverse backgrounds into public policy because these are the folks who will eventually make important decisions for our community. [Because] if they don’t reflect the community, then how do we know what [services or programs are] needed?”

As such, after undergraduate school, Dinh sought a public policy degree from Harvard and a law degree from the University of California, Berkeley within a joint degree program. For those looking to wed different interests together, joint degree programs like the one in which Dinh studied allow students to not only graduate with two high-level degrees, but also often allow them to learn in two completely different cities and universities. In Dinh’s case, this meant bracing herself for Boston snow for one year and a half and soaking up the San Francisco sun for two and a half. Because she was only studying for one degree at any given time, she was able to compartmentalize her studies and get the most out of her education for those four years. Importantly, she felt that her time in public policy school helped her gain the people-skills she needed to be successful in her law career.

From there, Dinh went on to do just about everything you’re encouraged to do to land a spot at a prestigious law firm: summer internships at law firms, law school semesters working on a law publication, a clerkship after graduation—her dedication and persistence led her through each and every position. In particular, she said she loved clerking for a judge.

“I would say that it was one of my best… work experiences,” Dinh said. “Time is on your side… We decide[d] the cases on the judge’s time, so if I needed two more weeks to review something because there’s an issue with one of the pleadings, I [could] do that.”

And with the people skills she honed in graduate school, she was able to be more successful as a clerk.

“People skills come from life experiences…[because] no one teaches you how [to] get along with four people in a very close environment,” Dinh said. “It’s you, the judge, another law clerk, the judge’s assistant…you can make or break that experience based on how open you are to your coworkers. In our chambers, we helped each other with editing processes. If I wrote something, my co-clerk was more than happy to review it for me and give me some feedback.”

After clerking, Dinh worked at Susman Godfrey for a year and a half before moving to her current firm, Mayer Brown, where she has been a Litigation Associate for over a year. Her move was steeped in her desire to always try and find a better work-life balance, saying she wants to be “thriving,” not “surviving.” At Mayer Brown, Dinh also has the opportunity to take up more pro bono cases than before, allowing her to continue her love of serving her community. She is currently helping a LGBT woman from Honduras seek asylum and helping a grandmother become a guardian for her grandaughter. Through speaking with Dinh, I was able to see how dynamic a career in law can be and how many different avenues there are for you to have experience with the law. Dinh herself even had a hand in getting legislation passed while at University of California, Berkeley without having a full-fledged juris doctorate—she simply had the drive and compassion to make changes. In terms of what her next adventure might be, Dinh had this to say:

“I have no idea whether I’ll be working at a law firm or maybe in the public sector one day, so I’m keeping those options open. It’s good to be able to do your work, but also not be so tunnel-visioned where you don’t see other opportunities.”

For someone like me, it’s a good reminder that you are in the driver’s seat when it comes to your career.

Highlights from the interview:

How did you spend your summers, because from what I understand about law school, you want to have internships every summer basically?

That’s right. Law school is different in that your first year grades matter for your first year summer internship, and if you go to a private law firm, they usually offer you [a spot] to come back the next summer, so really your first year grades impact two summers of law school. During my first summer, it was popular for you to do two six-week internships a summer. I did six weeks at a law firm called Norton Rose Fulbright, and then six weeks at the U.S. Attorney’s office. [Assistant U.S. Attorneys] are the prosecutors for the government, [so] anytime you have criminal or civil cases, those [are the] attorneys representing the U.S.A. So it was good to see both private and public sector work to see what the differences were and what you need to do to get a job like that.

The second summer I was offered to come back to that same firm for another four weeks, and then I [interned] with a second law firm called Jackson Walker, where I did real estate work. So it was transaction on one side and litigation on the other side. I was offered a full time position there for the next year, but I ended up applying for clerkships, which are a one year or two year opportunity to work with a judge, and I applied to ones here in Houston with the federal court. I ended up working with Judge Gray Miller. He is a UH law alum, and he’s Houston through and through, and it was great to come back here and be able to work with him and also be able to advise him about the cases where essentially you’re getting to read and analyze well-written briefs, you’re performing research and then you’re providing recommendations of how the order should be written. And then you’re ghost-writing the court’s orders. 

Would you be able to give me some examples of different cases that you’ve worked on to get an idea of what specific types of law that you are most interested in?

When I was clerking, my favorite case happened to be a trademark infringement case with SpongeBob SquarePants. An individual in Houston wanted to open up a restaurant in Kemah called the Krusty Krab, spelled with two Ks, and Paramount Pictures and Viacom which owns Nickelodeon and owns SpongeBob SquarePants sued them for a trademark infringement. Viacom argued that they’ve used the Krusty Krab, spelled with two Ks, in their shows for over ten years, and so people who go to that new restaurant may think that it’s associated with Nickelodeon, and would be confused by that. And the restaurant owner responded, “Well, you know I applied for a trademark before you guys ever did.” But in Texas and in the federal law in the Fifth Circuit, the rules are basically, whoever uses the mark first in commerce has the rights, not who applied for the application first. And so that was something that was interesting because both sides had good points, but then the law itself governs who should win in that case. So I wrote an opinion for the Judge, and the restauranteur ended up appealing that opinion to the Fifth Circuit. Later on the Fifth Circuit agreed with the Judge in our case, which I was very happy about. That was a good feeling, especially being able to kind of follow that case from start to finish. Whenever I volunteer with the Houston Bar Association, we’d go to different elementary schools and talk about careers in law, I tell them about the SpongeBob case and they would understand.

What kind of skills do you think are important that aren’t necessarily subject-matter related?

Law, especially litigation, is a people-person type of work. You have clients, you have to communicate with them. So being able to talk to someone and kind of gather information from them without making it feel like an interrogation is a good skill set. You need to lead an informational interview, making it easy for that person to answer your questions.

I would say another skill-set that students particularly could do better with is email communications. For example, if a student wanted to talk to me about careers in law, I’m more than happy to do it, but I may not have the time immediately. So I would hope that the student is the one initiating suggested times to meet up for, let’s say, coffee. They’ll send a calendar invite or email to follow up, saying, “Hey, is today still good for you? I know you’re busy, is it still good to meet at three?” If a student were able to kind of follow up and do that, it makes my life easier to say “Yes,” each time if they want to meet up for coffee to talk about their career or law school or whatever. I think sometimes students send an email and then take a week to respond, which seems unprofessional. It’s important to know the formalities of being able to write email and being appreciative of people’s time. I just hope more people utilize that skill and not be afraid to reach out to somebody else.

Do you have any general advice for a college student looking to be a lawyer?

I always say, figure out what problem you want to solve and what skills you want to build on. For example, if you’re a litigator, you’re writing and researching and ultimately writing to the court. But if you’re a real estate attorney, you wouldn’t need that skill set, or you wouldn’t use it every day. Depending on your specific job or role, you may have to focus on certain skills more than others as well as learn to navigate different tools and resource platforms.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee.