Longitude Sound Bytes
Ep 128: New Era of American Flag Football (Listen)

Satoshi Mizutani
University of California, Los Angeles
Los Angeles (34.0° N, 118.2° W)

featuring Brian Michael Cooper, Sports, Entertainment, and Media Attorney, Frost Brown Todd, Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

Let me start off by saying that it was an absolute privilege to interview Brian Michael Cooper, who is a partner at Frost Brown Todd and a member of the firm’s Entertainment, Media, and Sports Practice. He has previously served as President of the XFL Houston Roughnecks, Senior Associate Athletic Director at Rice University, and President of the NBA G-League Rio Grande Valley Vipers. Without the platform of Longitude.site, I would not have been able to connect with such an accomplished person and I am deeply thankful for that. I highly encourage everyone to read the transcript because I have done several interviews like this and his insights are unparalleled. It will be very helpful regardless of the industry you are interested in, not just the sports.

You’ve probably heard this phrase from Steve Job’s commencement speech at Stanford University several times: “You’ve got to find what you love.” It’s a testament to one’s need to be passionate about what you do in order to be successful. For some people, that comes easy. Whether it’s in the field of medicine or entrepreneurship, there are people who know exactly what they want to do as soon as they are done with college. However, a lot of students haven’t really figured out their life plan at that point and feel somewhat stressed that they are following the “traditional” path.

I was the latter. I’ve always loved sports, but I didn’t know how I could get into the industry, and honestly speaking, I did not know if I wanted to work in sports knowing what I can make in finance. However, after working 6.5 years in finance, I can truly say that working in sports is what I want to pursue as my next career and I have no regrets leaving finance. If you have doubts about whether your interest is worthy of making it your career, I think it’s perfectly fine to go with your alternative interest. If it is truly your passion, you will eventually find a way to get there. The fact that you have doubts about it means that it might not actually be your dream, and the initial path, which seems like it is taking you away from your interest, might actually work out in your favor. Brian was always interested in sports, but he initially thought that he either had to be a player or a coach to work in sports. He decided to pursue his interest in government and attended Harvard Kennedy School of Government and Columbia Law School to achieve that, but after realizing that there was a path that he could take to sports that complemented his skillset while he was at graduate school, he made the decision to follow his passion and practice sports law after graduating from law school. The knowledge he gained from a path that was not initially intended to lead to sports ended up paying a huge dividend for him.

The biggest takeaway I had from this interview was simple but powerful: Once you find your passion, you need to follow it, never give yourself an excuse not to, and then go the extra miles. Throughout his career, Brian refused to accept what seemed like uncontrollable external factors that would deter many people away from pursuing their goal. For example, when he applied to become the team president of the Rio Grande Valley Vipers, people said he would be unlikely to get the role given his lack of experience in an executive position that oversaw business operations.  However, instead of listening to other people’s “gating techniques,” he instead focused on what he could do to prove that he is capable of performing such a task. He ended up putting together an eight-page analysis of the team and an action plan for what he would do to improve the team. Through that, he was able to show that he was more capable of leading the team than other candidates. This lesson is important regardless of what you decide to pursue in the future.

As you move up in your career, it is very likely that your resume itself will not get you to the new roles. I’ve interviewed many candidates, and I can tell you that most of them have a degree from top tier universities, and most have a stellar work experience that shows that they are competent for the role that they are pursuing. Obviously, culture fit and luck are huge factors as well, but what sets someone apart is the willingness to go the extra mile. Brian said that he would love to see candidates who take the time to do research on the role that they are applying for and have a clear roadmap on how they plan to accomplish their goals. That itself would mean more for the employers than your credentials in some cases, as proven by Brian himself. It is easy to say that you can’t apply for a role that you want to pursue because you don’t have the experience they look for, but Brian taught me that there is always a way and given the advancement in connectivity through technology, it is much easier to get noticed if you put in the effort.

There are so many other takeaways, such as how you overcome a lack of branding power to acquire new clients or businesses, which would be helpful for aspiring entrepreneurs, but I truly think that it would be best to read them in Brian’s words in the excerpts below. My final thought is the reminder to pursue a goal that you might have given up on due to external factors that you thought you could not overcome, and remember that the world is your oyster.

Highlights from the interview:      

When did you first envision yourself as being involved in sports?

I played sports in high school and for a couple years in college. I played football at Cornell University where I was a political science major. At the time I thought that to be involved in sports business, you either have to be a player or a coach, and there are not many avenues towards getting there. I also had equal passion for government and politics, so after graduating from Cornell, I worked for a congressman for a year and then went to the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University while also working toward a law degree at Columbia University. At Harvard, my first sports-related assignment was an antitrust analysis of Proposition 48, an NCAA rule designed to regulate academic standards for participating in athletics.  In addition, at the Kennedy School, students also complete a project called a Policy Analysis Exercise (PAE). The focus of my PAE was midnight basketball, a policy program designed to assist kids as a safe haven and alternative to the streets. These basketball leagues also had an educational component. The sponsor for my PAE on midnight basketball was the NBA. After those projects, I thought there might be an opportunity for me to switch from a government-focused career to a sports-focused one. When I got to Columbia Law School, I was able to connect with a mentor in law school who was a sports lawyer who helped me identify the law firms that specialized in sports.  I was able to secure the opportunity to work at Proskauer Rose, a preeminent sports law firm, which, among other clients, represented the NBA, NHL, ATP Tennis, and MLS. I was fortunate to get a clerkship with Proskauer and then ultimately a full-time job starting out of law school. That’s how I started my career working with sports entities. 

What advice would you give to students that are aspiring to get into sports industry? What is the best way to get your foot through the door?

The most important thing is networking. The sports industry is a high-demand industry that values relationships. As president of a sports team, if I needed a new staff member, I would want that person to get up to speed fairly quickly. So, I found myself relying upon my existing network of individuals to quickly find people that fit into my staff.  To that end, I advise students to begin industry networking while in college and grad school, using that time to build some really meaningful contacts in the industry.

Internships are also great – paid or unpaid (with applicable school course credit). Many internships in sports are unpaid; however, those internships provide valuable experience.

And in the last 20 years, the internet has become a great equalizer because it allows for the acceleration of reputation and skill that may have taken longer to attain in the past.  One way to get noticed is by writing about sports business issues or sports legal issues in a blog or in a commentary. There are people who have done that and built careers at a faster pace because they were able to put together very compelling content as law students and as young lawyers to attract the attention of potential clients.

You should also put together a roadmap of where you want to be 5 to 10 years from now. Let’s say you want to be the general manager of an NBA team 10 years from now. That will require certain skills such as the skill to scout talent, the ability to read and understand contracts, and the ability to negotiate. So, you should start building all those skills that you will need 10 years from now.

You started your career as a sports attorney, but you also served as director of sports programming for Dish Network and as president of an XFL football team in Houston. How did you handle the work beyond your initial expertise and what did you do to overcome the challenges while you were president?

In 2008, I had been practicing law for about 10 years, I had been an agent representing players, and I’d been advising companies on business decisions and transactions related to sports. [That year], a colleague made me aware of an opportunity to become the team president of an NBA D-League team in Rio Grande Valley, Texas. The team was affiliated with three NBA teams: the Houston Rockets, New Orleans Hornets, and Cleveland Cavaliers. The challenge was that I’d been practicing law for 10 years and I had not been in an executive position. A colleague in the industry said the team was probably looking for a minor league baseball team president with executive experience. So, I needed to separate myself [from the other applicants]. I put together an eight-page analysis of the team, an action plan for how I saw the team, what I would do as president, and how I would build the business. I had four action items for the business: One of the items was to build closer ties with the NBA. Second, I also proposed marketing the team to underrepresented groups of consumers. Third, I said we would establish a greater presence in the community with outreach projects and grassroots marketing. Finally, I said we would make better use of technology and use tech to create projects that were a little bit outside the box. I set up that roadmap and said this is what I plan to do with the team; here are my goals, guideposts, and objectives; and you can ask me questions about how this will work. They called me for a face-to-face meeting in the Rio Grande Valley and with that plan, ultimately, I was named president of the team.  People will use gating techniques to shut you down no matter what, and one gating technique is to say that you don’t have the background that they’re looking for. Just because you haven’t technically held that title, it doesn’t mean that you don’t have the skills. I would love to get such a roadmap from a candidate because it means they took the time to learn about my business, they are invested in its success, and they’ve already outlined how they’ll get there. A lot of times candidates are scared of achieving greatness by not putting together a strategic plan and saying, “I can do this job and here’s I’m going to show you how I can do it.”

What was your roadmap when you worked as the president of an XFL team, which was a relatively brand-new organization? Do you have any advice for aspiring entrepreneurs on how to go against the Goliaths of the industry? 

I like being the underdog. I think it allows for us to avoid being complacent. When I ran teams in the NBA G-League and XFL, I told my staff that we would present a product for which we would not make excuses. What I meant was we would run our operations in a first-class manner and similar to major leagues like the NFL or the NBA. We would build and execute projects as if we were a member of either of those leagues. When you do that, that gets you into a mindset that, while you’re the underdog, you believe that you can deliver the same level of service that a more established brand could provide. It’s not easy, it requires more work, but the motivation is there and you know how to get those things done. For example, teams in major leagues who have established brands over decades have an easier time reaching sponsors and consumers.  In leagues that are not as established, you have to explain to sponsors and consumers why your product is valuable enough to meet their needs. Starting out, you’re looking for brands and partners. I tend to look for partners who are in a similar boat, who are equally scrappy, who are equally trying to make it to that next level. When your affiliation with those partners helps them get to that next level, it’s great to see them establish their brand. Never losing the underdog nature, but at the same time, never making excuses for it, is really the key in my opinion. 

Can you get into specifics of trying to convince your partner that advertising with your team would be more beneficial for their company than for an NBA team?

Yes, I can give you an example. At the beginning of a deal negotiation with an insurance company that was reluctant to make deals in general, we started a relationship with small projects, and we listened to what they wanted. We didn’t come in with our own pre-ordained idea of what they would want. A lot of times, you’ll see people who are pushing in that space to tell the partner or consumer what they want. However, the best approach is to listen first – find out what they want, what they need, and what’s important to them. 

First, build the initial relationship and then make sure you do well by that client not to lose them. That holds true for both sports and law. For example, we had a client who was originally not willing to do work with any brand, not just us. We started with a dialogue and we were able to talk with them about what they wanted and needed. We then gave them a much more personalized plan to meet their needs. At the end, we exceeded their expectations and that developed into a really good relationship. 

Do you foresee any specific challenges in your industry in the near future, whether it is technology-related or not?

Right now, we’re in the middle of the largest challenge that the sports industry has faced. Sports, like entertainment, is a spectator-driven entity. Live events are not happening right now and will not happen anytime soon or they will happen in a limited scale. We will not see a return to pre-COVID attendance numbers until there’s a vaccine, that vaccine is considered to be widely effective, and people feel comfortable taking it. That may be another 12–18 months away.

But I think the sports industry is going to rise to those challenges and adapt as needed. We will see more emphasis placed on digital interactions with fans from a remote location such as virtual hangouts, conferences, and Q&A sessions with players, coaches, and executives. Esports is being built for digital distribution and digital production. I think we will see greater emphasis on projects like fantasy football. Performance-based sites will start taking a more prominent role as well.

Even when individuals return to sports events, the facilities will be different. The way to manage a crowd will be different and there will be increased operational costs associated with protecting and facilitating those crowds. We’ll also see a shift in technology as well, especially in wearable device technology. At a PGA tournament in Detroit a few weeks ago, one of the wearable fitness wristbands worn by a golfer identified changes in the golfer’s breathing that resulted in the early detection of a positive test for COVID. Analytical measurements may become a bit more prominent down the road where they will take on an additional role in how the game is played, how the game is made, and how the game is analyzed. It will be very interesting to see these advances going forward. 

One big legal issue with these wearable devices is the privacy of the players or whether they get an unfair advantage over negotiations by having all these data that relate to their personal health? How will the teams manage these data from wearable devices?

Yes, there may be a legal fight in the future regarding questions of privacy.  However, I believe that the teams and players will figure out how to address their interests to their mutual benefit, managing and balancing the advantages and disadvantages of using such technology.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee. This article only aims to share personal opinions and learnings and does not constitute the interviewee’s current or former employer(s)’ position on any of the topics discussed.

Jamie Chen
Rice University
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Bo Sripharphan, Strategic Account Executive, Nike, St. Louis (38.6° N, 90.1° W)

Bo Sripharphan is a strategic account executive at Nike. He graduated from Rice University in 2015 with a bachelor’s degree in sport management and statistics. I had the pleasure of interviewing Bo, who is currently based in Saint Louis, Missouri, over the phone while I was across the country in Houston. In the interview, we discussed his journey to Nike and the various positions (planning analyst, retail planner, and now strategic account executive) he has held over the past five years. Our discussion revealed how a lack of “optimal” mainstream options can actually make way for more personalized opportunities.

Like many students, Bo “bounced around” during college—“from BIOE to ECON, MATH ECON to managerial studies”—before finally settling on a major (statistics) and then picking up another (sport management) toward the end of college. Going into junior year and during the crucial internship recruiting season, he “was pretty focused on doing something in consulting or finance.” However, the results were not as he had hoped. In April, while it seemed that “everyone else had their internships lined up,” he was still “trying to figure out what to do with [his] summer.” I think it is interesting that the feeling that “everyone else” has better plans and better resumes (and better experience) than us—our relative sense of inferiority—seems to be a common (and hence contradictory) phenomenon amongst many people coming from competitive backgrounds and competitive universities.

For Bo, the turn of events was a text “out of the blue” from one of his professors in the sport management department asking if he wanted to work for Nike over the summer. He jumped at the opportunity, working at the Nike office in Katy (a suburb of Houston) after his junior year. As Bo put it, this “opened doors that [he] never knew existed.” He had “never dreamed of” being able to, or even trying to, work for Nike. As a kid in middle school, all the way through the first few years of college, Bo used Nike’s online customization tool to design custom shoes knowing he could not afford to buy them. Bo loved sports growing up, and all the athletes he idolized were Nike athletes, so he naturally “had a very strong affinity for Nike.” Looking back, it seems like a perfect fit, but immersed in the heavy fog of “top” career options such as consulting and finance, Bo “never put the pieces together until the opportunity kind of dropped into [his] lap” when all the other options fell through. Bo reflected that he never had a strong passion-driven desire to go into consulting or finance; on the contrary, he feels “very privileged” to have a job where he genuinely likes what he does. Nonetheless, for young people, personal passion can sometimes be overshadowed by external influence when choosing their careers.

For figuring out what you want to do and choosing a career, Bo recommended just thinking of “things that you like” and making a list, then extending the list to companies you would want to work for. Bo explains that doing similar exercises and looking at your preferred lifestyle allows you to think about how you could potentially build a career out of what you are passionate about.

When asked about the most important or most utilized skills to succeed in his current position as a strategic account executive, Bo answered immediately and with certainty—communication. He highlighted the importance of nonverbal communication and the ability to “properly word emails,” something we often overlook, but an extremely crucial skill that minimizes misinterpretation and maximizes efficiency. Bo added that the ability to maintain relationships is absolutely crucial, especially when transitioning to a more technical entry-level role to an executive or more managerial role where one has to deal with a lot more people. Unlike the quantitative and analytics background many of us with technical degrees may come from, Bo put it plainly that “at the end of the day, the numbers might say one thing, but you have to still be able to convince somebody to follow suit with your plan.” Good communication leads to strong relationships and greater trust that then allow for necessary risk-taking.

In addition to soft skills, Bo also highlighted the importance of a strong analytical ability—not just picking out the right trends, but “properly [expressing] those trends” such that it “drives action.” Bo gave an example that “instead of just telling them what the weather’s going to be, I’m going to tell them…they need to pack an umbrella and a jacket for the day.” Being able to adapt yourself and your message to fit different situations with different people requires continued practice, and those crucial skills can be developed throughout one’s college career through participation and leadership in clubs and events.

For many of us in similar situations, where there seem to be a limited set of natural or expected career paths, given our backgrounds and our perceived realities, my discussion with Bo offers a few key takeaways—

1. Our “only paths” are never the only paths
2. “perfect” journeys are extremely rare—the “standard” way in expectation is rarely the standard (or most common) way in reality
3. sometimes, it’s just a “text out of the blue,” from the right person at the right time, that might just lead to the right opportunity.

Highlights from the interview:

What does being a planning analyst or a retail planner really entail?

Sales teams work with retailers…the Katy team actually manages all the Nike product and all the Nike-related things for Academy Sports and Outdoors. Academy has stores over most of the country, generally the south and southeast. And that team out there handles anything and everything related with Nike, whether it’s ordering product, shipping them inventory, marketing assets…So, as an analyst on that team, my job is to help Academy increase their revenue. Figure out what’s selling best… say the Texans go on a four-game win streak. So, people are going to go crazy for Houston Texans products, there’s going to be a lot of red sold just in general. People that don’t necessarily want a Texans shirt, but they want something they can wear to the game, they might go buy just a solid red t-shirt to go watch the game in. So, as we see those type of trends pick up, in response we make sure that we have enough red t-shirts, red shoes, red hands to send to Academy to make sure we can fulfill that demand. So that’s the role of an analyst and/or retail planner…to react and predict sales trends, and help Academy capitalize as best we can on that.

What are the most important skills or skills you find yourself utilizing the most to succeed in your position? 

Communication. First and foremost. Being able to properly word emails—there’s so much that nonverbal communication can help express when you’re having a conversation in person. But making sure that your emails are clear, and there’s little room for misinterpretation is very important. So you’re able to communicate things in an efficient manner.

And I think part of communication as well is also building relationships with the people that you work with. Whether it’s me building relationships with people on the Nike side, or building relationships with the retailers that I manage, what I’ve learned—which is in contrast to the analytics background that I have—is that at the end of the day, the numbers might say one thing, but you have to still be able to convince somebody to follow suit with your plan. There have certainly been situations where an objective that I have is I want to sell them more blue shoes. The numbers don’t say that blue shoes are good. In fact, the numbers say that they should not buy any more blue shoes. But, you know, I have future insight to what’s either developing trend or whatnot, so when the retailer comes back to me and says, “But, hey, look at all of our numbers. We have really bad history with blue shoes.” It’s a matter of having the relationship and having them trust me enough to take this risk. So, I think communication is the key piece of building strong relationships.

And after communication, I think it goes back to having strong analytical ability. To being able to look at large sets of data and pick out trends and then properly express those trends to the people that I work with in a manner that drives action versus reporting. Instead of just telling them what the weather’s going to be, I’m going to tell them…they need to pack an umbrella and a jacket for the day. That’s the way that I’ve approached analytics…That’s a much more actionable way to communicate and really fulfills the point of being in analysis and analytics that I’m doing. 

Can you give a brief example of the kind of projects you work on?

One that I’m working on right now is helping to create products for Nike. The business I work in, we typically work nine months in advance. So, right now, this is March, we are currently working on what October and December of 2020 look like, and what products we’re going to bring to the marketplace. And we’re just about to start working on January through March of 2021. Our job is to inherently predict what consumers are going to buy, what trends are going to be like.

One of the projects I’m working on right now is that I’m helping to develop a specific colorway of shoe, one that I believe—based on analytics and all the trends that we see going on in the marketplace—will be successful 9-12 months from now.

It’s certainly a lot of fun. You quickly learn that you lose a lot more than you win in this situation. Because as pervasive as analytics is, at the end of the day, we’re still a fashion business and fashion is pretty hard to predict.

What advice would you give students interested in following a similar career path?

It’s never too early to start. And I think that doing internships at school and really seeking out those opportunities and giving yourself the chance to explore while you’re in an environment like Rice is…I mean, it’s absolutely crucial. There’s certainly a balance to be had with the experience, but I think you can’t really take your eye off the ball. Otherwise, you might spend some time after graduation ends to make some exploration that you could have done in a maybe more efficient or easier manner at Rice. The biggest thing that you have to [do is to] go out there and seize those opportunities, [as] more often than not they’re not going to fall into your lap.

One of the things that I personally learned, especially with big name brands…the best way to do it, in my opinion, is to just get your foot in the door. Wherever that is, you may not start in the ideal position, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get there pretty quickly…Once you get into the company, there’s always more opportunity to grow and develop.

Is there anything I asked or didn’t ask that you wanted to mention, or any other trailing thoughts in general?

Working at Nike was something that never was on my radar. I think for anyone that is interested in following suit, there are so many different ways to get into the company, and I would encourage people to explore things that they either [are] interest[ed in] or just things that they’d never really considered careers in, because that’s certainly what happened in my case, because I never dreamed about having a career at Nike. And, you know, here I am. Five years later. You don’t know what’s available until you just go out and start working. 

That’s definitely some pretty good insight and advice for people like us still trying to figure out what to do.

Honestly, maybe make a list. One of me and my older roommates, we used to do this semi-often, just think of things that you like. So, one of his things was Spotify. He used Spotify all the time and loved it. He loved the yearly recaps and was like, “Okay, maybe Spotify is a company I’d want to work for.” So doing things like that and looking at your lifestyle in ways like what are you passionate about that you could potentially build a career out of.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee.

Chidera Ezuma-Igwe
Rice University
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Jarvis Sam, Senior Director of Sourcing and Diversity Recruitment, Nike, Portland (45.5° N, 122.6° W)

Jarvis Sam currently serves as the senior director of sourcing and diversity recruitment at Nike. Jarvis majored in history, sports management, and policy studies and graduated from Rice University in 2013. After graduation, he began a career in consulting but quickly realized that it was not for him. He went into diversity and inclusion at Google and within a few years was recruited as a global diversity manager at Snap Inc. Jarvis defines his time at Snap Inc. as a formative time in his career that prepared him for his current position at Nike.

A significant theme throughout Jarvis’s career is making a change when your previous decision does not work. Often people tend to get comfortable and afraid to try new things, but Jarvis has been open to change, and these changes have led him to a senior position at one of the largest companies in the world. For his first three years at Rice, Jarvis was pre-law; he even took the LSAT. After some reflection, however, he realized that the clerical part of being an attorney was something he was not interested in. He decided to explore different fields that had his favorite parts about the law, like interpersonal communication and helping others. His coursework in history and policy explored social issues, investigated cultural phenomena, and offered a diverse array of knowledge about different cultural groups. His coursework in sports management helped him understand how businesses operate. These topics ended up particularly relevant in his current field of diversity recruitment and retention at Nike. In addition, his academic work and participation in extracurricular activities like speech and debate required him to develop the research and communication skills that are necessary for his current work. It was nice to see how you can connect your academic work in college to your career, regardless of whether you work in a directly related field.

After college, Jarvis went into consulting but immediately found that it was not for him, so he went off to see something that was a better fit. He was hired at Google where he began his journey in the diversity and inclusion space. He mentioned how influential his first manager at Google was and how he became his mentor. Jarvis turned this job into an opportunity to learn, connect, and expand his network and understanding of what attracts new hires. This experience took him to various parts of the globe including Switzerland and Brazil working on critical global diversity initiatives. His work resulted in him being recruited by Snap Inc. as a manager overseeing the companywide diversity effort. During his time at Snap, he saw the company grow from 400 to 3200 people; being in that environment gave him the opportunity to spearhead new initiatives at the growing company. Jarvis introduced the idea of having an entrepreneurial mindset at work, in the sense that as an employee you should advocate for your company as if it were your own business. At first, I was confused by the phrase, but by translating the same work ethic you would have if your company was your business, you can guarantee that you will produce good work. Jarvis has worked hard to make it to his current position after changes early on in his career path.

Jarvis has such a positive spirit; with every change in his career, he has continued to move forward and use past experiences to put himself in an advantageous position. I was genuinely inspired by Jarvis. I learned so much about having a successful career path and being open to change. I am currently not sure what my future holds, but this interview assured me that hard work, networking, and mentorship are valuable tools in whatever field that I may enter. As a Rice student, the default for people who do not immediately pursue a graduate degree, or career directly associated with their major, is consulting, but it was good to hear from someone who has a great career outside of those defaults. I realized I have a limited idea of the types of jobs that exist beyond the staples of doctors, lawyers, and professors. There are endless jobs that are rewarding and lucrative but do not have the same level of awareness. This conversation motivated me to search for careers in things I am interested in because there is a high possibility that these jobs exist and need people.

   I hope this conversation with Jarvis inspires people who are not sure about the next step in their lives and that it motivates them to work hard and find their career niche. Jarvis’s plan for his life changed drastically when he decided not to go into law and enter consulting, but he continued to push to find work that he is passionate about. The workplace advice Jarvis shared applies to all aspects of life, not just work, and I hope to use these skills in my own life.

Highlights from the Interview

You had three majors in college. How did that come about?

I studied history and public policy and sports management. I delved into the history program very early in my tenure, actually. I knew very quickly I wanted to be a history major, as at the time I was pretty set on going to law school. I took a ton of the history seminar courses, went through the process of writing an honors thesis. Then, I added the public policy major. I did a semester at University of Hawaii my sophomore year instead of going abroad. While I was there, I took a couple of classes in Hawaiian history and did some course work in the law and justice space. I studied race law and intersectionality in the law. It aligned really well and earned me transfer credit for the public policy major. I was always involved in speech and debate.

Then, in my junior year, I was working over in athletics, tutoring student athletes, and really enjoyed that experience. One day some of the guys and some of the girls on the tennis team were like, “Hey, you should take some of the classes with us.” So I took a couple of introductory sport management courses and fell in love. Just learning about the sports business, and the provocative nature of sports, and how it can be leveraged in culture was really interesting to me. So I picked up that major, and it’s been incredibly useful.

What skills did each major provide you?

When we think through the history major, it is not the most applicable from a coursework perspective. However, the skills I learned about verbal and written communication and crafting an effective argument and leveraging support of research from primary and secondary source materials is certainly something that I use everyday in my career. On the public policy side, working in the diversity and inclusive space, and having a strong understanding of how marginalized groups have been impacted in this country and then abroad— that is really the crux of what I do in framing out the moral vision and ethical case for diversity programs. And then finally my sports management degree was pretty useless in the early parts of my career, but as fate would have it, I ended up working at Nike, so it’s now very useful. 

Everyone’s family, community, and life circumstances create an initial role from them in society. What was expected of you? Did you adhere to it or stray from it, and how does your family feel?

That’s a good question. It was kind of a mixed bag for me. Myself and my siblings are first generation college students in my family, then in our extended family we’re the only three out of about twenty-five cousins to go to college today, so I would say familial expectations at the extended level was, you know, you either learn something vocationally and pursue that or try to figure out what the next step in your business is. My mom worked in education and my dad drove the bus for METRO in Houston. My brother went to college full scholarship, my sister did the same thing—so from them there was a huge amount of pressure to do well and to do better than what they had. When I look at socioeconomic capabilities, I did not grow up rich. I did not even grow up middle class. My mom, as a single parent, put us all through early, primary, secondary education. So for me that established an expectation of this new conversation about being a black male in America. I always knew what that meant and what I needed to do to be impactful.

When did you envision yourself as the current role you are now?

I was going to be a lawyer throughout my first three years at Rice. I’d done everything leading up to it, the pre-law course work, sat for the LSAT and all that jazz. And then between junior and senior year when I took my internship opportunity, I landed an internship with Deloitte and was pretty set on going into consulting—because that’s what Rice tells you to do if you’re not going to medical school—and decided to do that, and that was one of the biggest errors and greatest things that I could have done in life. I was at Deloitte a grand total of three months as an intern and six months as a full-time employee. I quit. Because it wasn’t what I wanted to do. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Right at the same time when I was working in the oil and gas industry, I got a call from Google to come work in HR to do team and talent work. They described it to be a strategic role. When I got there and ended up being a recruiter, I started to understand the strategy behind talent acquisition and how companies can leverage their brand to hire great people.

Why did you decide not to be pre-law? I’m currently in that boat, I’m like, “Am I really pre-law?” And I’d like to know about that decision process.

I figured out that I enjoyed a lot of the more tangible elements of what you think an attorney does, and I hated all of the actual attributes of what an attorney does. So, coming from speech and debate, I loved crafting logical arguments. I really enjoyed public speaking, giving presentations in front of large audiences, and framing context and content. I do not enjoy reading contracts. I don’t enjoy, you know, doing a lot of the more commercial activities that an attorney actually does—paper pushing, billing clients—I didn’t enjoy that. So for me, it was how can I look for a field that can leverage the skill set that I actually want to use without forcing me to do the other. And that’s when I decided I wasn’t pre-law. 

Plus, the cost is like $250,000 for three years. That’s a ton of money to invest for a career you actually don’t want to do. I would give this advice: if you do not know for sure that you want to be a lawyer, and you are not one hundred percent confident in it, do not do it, at least not right away. There’s a big movement now where people are going back to law school a little bit later, similar to MBA programs. They’re getting a year or two of work experience.

Do you have someone who has acted as a mentor and has helped cultivate your interests? 

A ton of people. My mother, obviously a big one. My brother, on the family side. But then on the Rice side, David Worth, the director of forensics, my old debate coach. He was a huge mentor for me; he was one of the biggest advocates who was like, “Figure out what it is you want to do in life and what you think being a lawyer is that gets you jazzed up, and then let’s do a survey of other careers that get you there.” He remains a very strong mentor for me.

I think the most beautiful part of mentorship is that you grow most through mentoring others and then mentoring laterally. I think people lose sight of that. In my current role, I manage a team of twenty, but I’m the youngest person on the team. So I’m managing people who are forty, people who are thirty-eight, one of my direct reports is forty-five. Mentoring people who are the same level as me. So I think it’s getting out of the mindset that mentorship has to be an older person who is in a big senior role.

What led you to your current position, and what does your position entail?

I will answer it in reverse order. My current position is the senior director of diversity recruiting and talent sourcing at Nike. What that means is that my team’s mission is to develop and own the integrated strategy for how to accelerate the flow of diverse talent at Nike across all levels, all geographies, and all businesses. So when we think about engagement of retail employees, working in the Nike stores, I work in partnership with that team to build out a diversity strategy. When we think about collegiate engagement for internships, I work with that team to build out their strategy. And then I directly own and manage our executive leadership strategy for diverse talent. 

I left Google after two and a half years when I went to Snapchat in LA, where I was for two and a half years as their head of diversity and inclusion. Did some really exciting work, loved loved loved working at Snapchat. Saw the company grow from about 400 to 3,200 by the time I left. Right around the time that I had given the consideration to exploring opportunities outside, I had received an offer from Nike and Disney right at the same time, and that ultimately is what led me to Nike—to move out of LA to Portland.

What are some misconceptions you had about your job?

I think that people will often think that because a company is big and makes a ton of money that they have their whole life together, and they’re going to be in a fast-moving, high-function space. And that may be true on a lot of cases, but I think two big things that stood out for me from Google and Nike—who are recognized as very powerful brands in the industry—is they still have challenges that they encounter. Mainly in terms of people, processes, and taking a clear metrics-driven approach to understand how to basically manage and develop.

What skills do you find yourself utilizing most?

It’s mostly verbal and written communication. Understanding how to leverage that interpersonally, interculturally, and cross-culturally. I had taken a business communication class on how to communicate cross-culturally, interculturally. And turns out it was one of the most important classes I could have ever taken. It took the body of work that I do right now—I’m there being an overseer for processes, Boston for Converse, LA for Nike, Jordan for Nike Chicago. But also for Amsterdam, Germany, in Spain, in Italy, parts of South America. So understanding, as you develop global strategy, how to effectively communicate interculturally, especially when you are doing big business in greater China—which is a deeply collectivist culture, obviously not rooted in the individualistic nature of capitalism. And again, it’s the tie-in with the history major, because I spent a good amount of time studying Chinese history. 

Tell me about your favorite project.

I would say the project that I’m most excited to have worked on at Nike so far is this: I built a program for community college students, which is aimed at getting more community college students involved in products. For a Nike product, it’s footwear and apparel. So when you take a look at that industry overall and the industry that we play—only thirty black footwear designers in the whole industry. So a huge deficit in what we could be doing, and so I made a program that’s starting in January that’s going to bring twelve community college students—all diverse—from the Los Angeles area to Nike to work as footwear graphic designers and apparel designers for the company. Attempting to shift strategic programs of the product—as well as change the supply side of the house—to exhibit that we are offering opportunity for diverse talent.

Could you describe the dynamics on a team that works on these kinds of projects in regard to the structural organization—or important characteristics that are used to run a good team?

I think the ability to run a team is obviously uniquely tied to effective management and leadership. There are three key qualities that are often leveraged. Number one is transparency and authenticity. People just want to know that you’re keeping it real with them and offering effective visibility into what you’re working on, how they’re being evaluated, and how that’s serving the larger business. I think that’s critical. Number two, directly in line with that, is tying your work to the business goal every single time. You’ll hear people talk about this mantra nowadays of living your life—no matter what role you’re in at a company—as an entrepreneur. I kind of agree with that, kind of don’t. Because if I was a founder of a company, I’d be far wealthier than what you all pay me on salary. So I do not always live life as a founder and entrepreneur. What I can do, though, is work as an advocate and active leader of my business to advocate for my people and advocate for my organization and for my leadership. And so there’s a final thing from there that I think is accountability—both on your team and on you as a leader. For me, accountability is really being a kind leader. I just got off a one-on-one call about an hour ago, and I had to give one of my team members pretty direct feedback.  But I know he appreciated it as he wants to grow his career and establish better client relationships over time.

How are science and technology reshaping how you work?

I think as more and more companies take a look at what their digital capabilities and technological offerings are, they begin to understand that the biggest drivers for growth, moving forward, are how effective can you be at leveraging technology and digital capabilities to drive revenue. The challenge, though, for any company doing that is that in the diversity and inclusion space, the black community and the Latino community, don’t have a ton of access to digital capabilities, whether in the form of a cell phone or laptop. So I would caution them that it’s fine to build out these capabilities that drive growth and revenue but to recognize that the digital divide is real and singlehandedly putting those communities out of using their product.

What advice would you give a student interested in your field?

As a student, enjoy yourself in undergrad. Take challenges, take risks, go global when opportunities present themselves, especially as a student at Rice—take advantage of all the global opportunities that you have. If they are presenting an opportunity to go to Spain, to go to Turkey, take full advantage of those because that global mindset is really going to be impactful. The number two thing is take coursework in communication. Ninety-nine percent of the reason that I’ve been able to do what I’ve done in the five years since I graduated Rice is because I was doing speech and debate, and I can talk myself into or out of most things. I think students graduating—especially students studying STEM education—don’t see the value in public speaking coursework, but it’s the best thing that they can do. And I think the final piece is do not be… don’t fear quitting and saying no. When I made the decision to quit Deloitte after six months, I’d started with six other Rice students, and they were all like, “Oh, what are you doing? You know you were supposed to be here at least two years.” And I was like, “No, that is a waste of another year and a half of my life.” I would much rather quit now, quit early to pursue the best fit for me.

(Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee.)