Jaena Kim
At the intersection of ideas and action, this is Longitude Sound Bytes, where we bring innovative insights from around the world directly to you.

This is Jaena Kim, Longitude Fellow from the University of Ottawa. Thanks for plunging into the 3rd series of Longitudes of Imagination, where we continue to explore the wonders of our ocean to celebrate the UN’s proclamation of the next decade dedicated to ocean science and sustainable development.

Keep treading on for conversational highlights I shared with Dr. Carlie Wiener, fellow Canadian and the Director of Communications and Engagement Strategy at the Schmidt Ocean Institute. We first started with exploring Dr. Wiener’s academic background and just how little we know about our planet’s salty waters.

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Carlie Wiener
I’ve been with the organization since 2014. I did my doctorate research, both in biological and social sciences, so I’ve always been interested in the human interface and interpretation of science. So Schmidt Ocean Institute is a philanthropic nonprofit organization. And we operate a research vessel or a ship named Falkor- in fact, actually, Falkor is going to be moving on, and we have a new research vessel that is currently being refit for science called Falkor (too). Essentially, the goal of Schmidt Ocean institute is to catalyze discoveries and understand our oceans. So a lot is not known about our ocean, and the ocean is so critical to the health of our planet. What we focus on is impactful science, so doing a lot of research, technology advancement, and then making that data publicly available. So open sharing of information and public engagement, getting people excited about the ocean and meeting people where their interests lie and trying to bring the ocean to them.

Jaena
How did you come to be first involved with the Institute?

Carlie
When I learned about Schmidt Ocean Institute in 2013, I was really keen to join the mission, and it was very cutting edge at that point. Since then there’s been a lot of other research vessels that have come on board, but Schmidt Ocean Institute was really one of the first that was working within an international community, making science publicly available. And I was really lucky enough to come in early into the program and help develop and expand our communications work. One of the unique things about Schmidt Ocean Institute is that it’s a great convener as well. So we do a lot of partnership work and collaborations with others in the field. And we recently in 2019 brought together all the research operators that are working with philanthropic organizations, and a group called the Pink Flamingo Society, so that we can align and collaborate some of the work that we do together, and our organization has done something similar as well for the operators of underwater robotics or ROVs.

Jaena
That’s fantastic. Actually, that’s a great segue, because my next question was going to be about your responsibilities as Director of Communications and Engagement Strategy. Could you share a bit about what you do on a day-to-day, maybe what falls within your scope of responsibilities and what you oversee?

Carlie
So I have a different day every day. It’s never the same day, which is kind of exciting for me. I like the variety in that. I’m really essentially responsible for the management of how we create and share content with the world. So how we are collaborating, engaging with stakeholders, how we’re sharing things across different platforms from—maybe it’s social media—to our impact reports, to workshops, to exhibits with aquariums and museums and also in the communities where we bring our ship. For us, the last few years have looked a little bit differently because of COVID, and, we’ve had to scale back some of our in-person engagement that we would typically do during ship tour days in the communities that we’re working in. But it’s also been an opportunity to rethink how we share science and engaging more with folks online. And so that’s something that I’ve really been fortunate to work on. The other big project or program that I coordinate is our Artist at Sea and student opportunities program. And the Artist at Sea program is my absolute favorite. It is bringing artists, all different types of artists, onto the ship to engage and learn and participate in the science and work with scientists and then take that knowledge that they gained and incorporated into the arts. And this really creates this new way that people can engage with science in a more approachable format. So it’s been a really fun time to work on communications and science communications. We just launched our 10-year strategic framework, so we have a really clear idea of where we’re going and how we’re going to campaign our new research vessel Falkor (too), which will come online later this year.

Jaena
That’s so exciting. Well, huge congratulations for all that hard work and effort, especially around COVID. I can’t imagine it would have been easy at all. I am so happy you brought up the Schmidt Artist at Sea program, because that’s something I read while I was doing some research. I’m not sure if you know, but the overarching theme of Longitude at the moment is Longitudes of Imagination. And so we’re really seeing the role that imagination plays in different sectors, and especially in more technical fields, such as science. Imagination isn’t a word I commonly associate with it, but the Schmidt Artist at Sea program sounds like a direct correlation between science and creativity producing this awesome and positive outcome. Maybe just jumping ahead, and then we can go back. In your everyday role as Director of Communications in a sector of marine communications and marine research, is there a role of creativity?

Carlie
Absolutely, yeah, there is a lot, especially in my role, for creativity, but I think in everybody’s role. I agree with you imagination doesn’t come up that often. But imagination is something that not only artists do, referring to the Artist at Sea program, but the scientists do. It takes a lot of creativity and problem solving skills to go out to sea where you don’t have everything at your disposal. Sometimes things break, and you have to invent things on the spot or and engineer things, or you have to look at problems in a creative way, right? So a lot of times scientists are looking at these new phenomena that we’re understanding about our ocean and trying to figure out why that’s happening. And that takes a creative person to think about what’s going on and using the data or the science to help formulate a hypothesis about what’s happening. And from a communication standpoint, we really have to use our imagination in different ways to engage audiences with the ocean and sharing science topics. And this is something that we really think about in our brainstorming when we look at a campaign or a new partnership. And the ocean itself definitely requires imagination. I think that the ocean is so weird and wonderful, especially the deep sea where we work, you know, you see all these incredible species. And the deeper you go, the weirder it gets. And so it’s almost like we’re operating real science fiction in real life. And technology has really transformed our ability to explore the ocean and to address and access these new other worlds that we’ve never been able to see before.

Jaena
Wow. I also heard your expert testimony at the hearing on the ocean exploration, I think back in 2019, in Washington. As a law student, I kind of have to geek out over that. I thought everybody provided such amazing expert testimony, but especially I loved that you touched- so there was a specific question. And you brought up like, why do we know more about the moon than the deep sea? And you know, as a regular person that doesn’t really think much about space or sea, that was a very surprising fact to me, considering that the sea is here, not necessarily at our disposal, but it’s on our planet, we know. But to access the moon you have to get a lot of materials and resources together and then fly them out. And one of the fellow witnesses, Mr. Lane, mentioned that outer space exploration is being led by entrepreneurs like Elon Musk, and Jeffrey Bezos, and you had shared that space has done a good job branding itself. From my knowledge, though, neither Musk nor Bezos started out in the space industry or as space experts. Do you think the same possibilities lie with the ocean, and maybe up and coming entrepreneurs, to make that same connection and broadcast the weird and wonderfulness of the sea, as you mentioned?

Carlie
So I think we’re there actually, I think we’re absolutely there. And I think the biggest thing that’s holding us back is that the ocean has a bit of a PR problem. I mean, look at popular culture and how much space is a part of that when we were growing up. You know, there’s all this space exploration and heroism around going to outer space and discovering new planets, where we’re not even discovering right now our own planet. It’s like looking at your neighborhood before even looking in your own house or your basement. We really need to, what people call ‘explore Inner Earth’ or, you know, the inner exploration of what we have already. And a lot of this is because the ocean is so vast, it can be overwhelming. And there’s so many different things happening with the ocean, different areas that people study, from coral reefs to the deep sea to the middle water column. And so many people looking at different aspects of it, from high seas, to deep sea mining, to fishing, to- there’s all of these doom and gloom scenarios out there and not enough emphasis on the wonder and the amazement of what actually is in the ocean, how important it is for us. And so I think making broader connections and using some of the incredible imagery that we have of the ocean is something that we’re starting to look to change, and that will inspire more explorers, more discovers, and really allow us to understand a lot more. The other thing is the technology piece. We just didn’t have the technology development to access a lot of areas of the ocean until the last 20 years. And so now that we do have a lot of that technology, and it’s continually improving, we’re able to do so much more. I mean, Schmidt Ocean Institute live streams all of our dives. So anybody around the world in real time can watch as we’re going to these new deep depths that no one’s ever seen before, discovering hydrothermal vents and new species, and are able to listen to commentary from the scientists as they’re seeing this for the first time, and engage in question and answer. And so we have this ability now, it’s just a matter of getting everybody on board.

Jaena
Yeah, I like how you brought up that- or you framed it in kind of a cute way that ocean has this PR problem. And you know, your role as Director of Communications, I see a direct correlation there. Because I feel like maybe that’s the crux of your job, you’re faced with this- almost this grand problem that everybody in ocean research is seemingly facing together. And yet it is your job to imagine ways to overcome that. Are there skills that you regularly use? Sorry, let’s backtrack a bit maybe, I first want to ask, what is it that you love most about your work? So going back to this huge problem that you’re faced with, this PR problem. And as a director of communication, being able to tackle that, it doesn’t seem easy, and I feel like if you weren’t driven and motivated it might be a bit much to handle. But all I see is enthusiasm and excitement to tackle this challenge and imagine that you love what you do.

Carlie
I do. You definitely, I think, in any field, have to have passion for what you’re doing to succeed at it. And one of the things that we get to do at our organization is the freedom to think about how we engage the public with the ocean. And this is a really exciting space to do that in. So as I mentioned, the key thing is partnerships and working together. And Schmidt Ocean Institute last year created a partnership with Nekton mission, which is based in the UK, and together we created a white paper called Ocean Rising and a workshop called Ocean Rising, and really what we focused on is, how do we get ocean into pop culture? And we looked at eight areas from restaurants, to gaming, to literature, to fashion, and how we can look at these areas of popular interest and bring the oceans into these spaces. So that’s something that’s a little bit different. And something that we’re really excited to move forward with and do a deeper dive in for each of these areas now, but that’s just one example. Managing the program, we do different things every day. And so from communicating different exploration and discoveries and how big the species are, and how people might relate to them, is another piece. So it’s always using your creative skills to think about how to share some of this information with the rest of the world.

Jaena
And I noticed that you have both a degree in communications and environmental studies, did that play any role in how you ended up in the field of Marine Science Communications? And actually, if you could briefly explain if there is a difference between other scientific communications and marine science communications?

Carlie
Yeah, I could definitely do that. So I think some of this is happenstance, and some of it definitely helped to inform where I was. Since I was three years old, I wanted to be a marine biologist. I was always enamored with the ocean. But growing up in Toronto, as you know, there’s not a lot of ocean opportunities there. And so going out of province or even out of country wasn’t really a tenable option for me for my undergrad. And I also really enjoyed people and communicating. So I started with an undergrad in communications, but I could not quiet that voice in my head that was just fascinated with the ocean and really wanted to be a part of science. And so luckily, I found a really interdisciplinary program that allowed me to do both for my Master’s and PhD. And then going into science early on in my career, I found that I kept gravitating to public outreach and working with communities and breaking down the science. And it happened at a time where really, science communication wasn’t its own field like it is now, you know, it’s really evolved and developed in the last 10 years. And so I feel like as that’s developed I sort of developed along with it, and just found myself in different roles where I was communicating, breaking down science, to get me to the point where I am today.

Jaena
Well, that was so organic in that transition. And although you say happenstance, I bet you’re a very talented communicator, and then you were able to meld your passion into something you’re good at. And I think that’s kind of the dream for especially the younger generation these days when we look for work that we think is meaningful, but also both makes an impact. So you’re living the dream, that’s for sure.

Carlie
I am very fortunate and very thankful for all the opportunities that I’ve had.

Jaena
Do you think mentorship or collaboration plays any role in cultivating one’s creativity or broadening one’s imagination?

Carlie
Oh, that’s a good question. Yeah, I think it does as we learn from each other. And we spark ideas from talking and traveling and doing different jobs and positions. So absolutely, I would not be where I am today without incredible mentors along the way that showed me new ways of doing things and sparking new ideas for how I approached my work. So I think that is a critical piece, yes.

Jaena
And maybe, actually, so I know that you were the producer and host of the All Things Marine radio show for six years, and you produced 70 episodes, which is an amazing amount. So I have a suspicion that you have a specific approach, or some ideas, to engaging with creativity or imagination.

Carlie
You’re absolutely dating me with like, radio show and not podcast. I enjoyed doing the radio show, it was great to interview other people and be on the other side of this. But I think I have so many things happening all at the same time. I’m a working mother, I’m running a program. I like to keep an ideas journal with me at all times, so if something pops up, I write it down. And I find that typing it into my phone or my computer I don’t remember it as much, unless I write it down. So I have a physical journal. And that might not work for everybody. But I always like to keep an ideas book close by. And it’s always nice to reread it and go through it every six months or so. And, you know, the other thing you mentioned too is being open to learning, and I don’t think I’ve ever stopped learning and being like, Okay, that’s it, I’m done. I got my PhD, no more learning for me. I think I’m constantly learning and doing creative things. And I really gain a lot from going to or participating in conferences where you’re getting inspired with other people’s projects and seeing what they’re doing, and being exposed to different areas of science and different areas of communication, and playing around with that and developing new ideas.

Jaena
Okay, even hopping back, you mentioned the Falkor and how it seems like one of the biggest components of the Schmidt Ocean Institute. Would you mind just telling us a bit about the Falkor?

Carlie
Absolutely. It is basically a floating research platform that really is cutting edge in terms of the science that it allows for. It’s very modular: we have all different types of science that comes on the ship. And so we’ll, like I mentioned earlier, do things from hydrothermal vents to sea mounts to deep sea corals, and looking at all different aspects of that. So that might be using our underwater robot, Subastion, which is another huge component of the science that we complete. It allows us to get 4K imagery in real time. It allows us to do sampling to look at water columns, or sediments, or corals, or even species collections, to get an assessment of biodiversity. We’re finding new species all the time. And you may think, well, why do you need to do that? Why is that important? But we, as you mentioned, don’t know a lot about these ecosystems. And we have to understand how they work with each other and how they support our ocean. And Falkor itself has been able to do incredible missions. We’ve done year round science since 2013. We even conducted work throughout the global pandemic. And we’re now at the point where we’ve outgrown that vessel. And so we are very, very excited to bring on Falkor (too) later this year, which is three times the size. That’s going to expand even further our capacity for technology development, for new science, and for the regions in the world we can go to, going to further latitudes. So it’s a really exciting time to be part of our organization.

Jaena
Absolutely huge congratulations.

Carlie
Thank you.

Jaena
Does Falkor have a home base?

Carlie
Falkor does not have a home port, or Falkor (too), because we try to achieve as much science as we can, and so we are constantly traveling around the world. Our goal is to do regional science moving forward with the new vessel, and so that will stay in one area for a year, and then move on to really maximize our capacity and what we’re able to accomplish in that region.

Jaena
That’s so exciting. I think this is a two-part question, but what do you hope to accomplish individually in the future? I can also give you a time frame for that, if that helps. And what would you also hope to accomplish through the Institution, let’s say in five years?

Carlie
We just put out our strategic framework for the next 10 years, which is kind of a rare thing to do. That’s pretty ambitious to have this 10-year strategy. But it really outlines our desire to go big, and to be able to conduct science and understand and characterize more in all seven oceans in seven areas of science that we’ve decided to focus on. As I mentioned, it’s sort of deeper water work. And so I think that really lays a foundation for what we’re doing moving forward. Schmidt Ocean Institute is really evolving now that we’ve been around for a while, and it’s not just focused on the ship and the science, but what land based capacity can we do? And what can we do with the research after the fact once it’s collected, and not just the science, but through technology, through the data, through sharing the data, and through public engagement with projects like Ocean Rising? And for me, personally, I’d say my goals are very much aligned with that. My goal is to see that we are communicating about the science and about the ship, and to really reach global audiences.

Jaena
Yeah, that’s really inspiring because the ocean, even though I don’t know much about it, I have this gut reaction that it plays such a big part in our lives and the well-being of our planet, and I know that we as humanity haven’t really treated our planet the nicest, and that it is our goal to work towards a more environmentally friendly future. But I don’t have much knowledge in how ocean research could connect to the prosperity of humanity. What is it that we can use ocean research for, beyond the ocean, if you could provide some insight?

Carlie
Well, put very simply, everything is connected. If we don’t have a healthy ocean, we don’t have a healthy planet. We absolutely need the ocean to live. And I think that that point is lost on a lot of people that say, well, I don’t live by the ocean, so it doesn’t impact me. Well, if you like breathing, if you like oxygen, you like the ocean, which is responsible for more than half of our oxygen production. Most people also don’t realize that the ocean is a major absorber of carbon dioxide. So in terms of climate regulation, and really trying to help us sort through a changing climate, the ocean is our best friend in this sense. It’s also a huge area of nutrition. For a lot of countries it’s a major protein source, and protects us from large storms, cyclones, really saves a lot of land and infrastructure that we have. So what we do on land does impact the ocean, even if you’re not living in a coastal area. And so that is a really important point. And in terms of how we use research for human prosperity, the options are endless. I mean, we’re looking to the deep sea now to look at how it can be a carbon sink in helping to really address our climate change problem. A lot of these deep sea species and even things as small as microbes we don’t know a lot about, and their potential to help with human disease. There are some examples of that. We are able to transform human society with the ocean. And so really supporting the exploration and understanding of it and protection of it is absolutely critical.

Jaena
With ocean research, you mentioned the innovations and technology, even just from 2013 – 2014 when you jumped on, have exponentially grown. Is it possible that we could use ocean technology? Is it transferable to other sectors in the area, or is ocean technology pretty specific to the ocean?

Carlie
No. And actually, we’re using a lot of technologies from other areas to apply to the ocean. the ocean has the issue that it’s vast, so you need to be able to have something that can characterize and understand and process very quickly. So artificial intelligence and machine learning are two areas of development that have been absolutely important to the changes that we’ve had with ocean technology. And then also the abilities to access these really harsh environments. You know, the deep sea, it’s not like swimming in 30 meters of water or your beach environment that you’re usually used to. You’re dealing with crushing pressures, extreme cold temperatures, changes in salinity and even light. It’s very dark down there, so having the ability to access that with tech development is really important. And even now, going back to space, doing a full 360 throwback, there are tools that we are testing in the deep sea now that are being adapted by NASA for space. So we’ve gone full circle here, in that we use this otherworldly environment on our planet to test things that we might be able to use on ocean planets in the future.

Jaena
That’s so exciting. I really like that close connection between ocean and space, it seems that the more creative you are in a technical field such as science, you have all these positive outcomes, and they really help each other and help us progress further. Why does the ocean get such a bad rep? I would love to know what advice you have for us.

Carlie
I think being able to understand and know a little bit more about the ocean is the other thing that will help perpetuate that. Learning more, and informing yourself, even if you’re not a coastal person, is really critical. Taking some appreciation for the positive things about how beautiful our ocean is, and all these great discoveries. And Schmidt Ocean has a wonderful library of short three-minute videos that take you through the science in a really digestible and understandable way. I encourage people to check us out either on social or our YouTube page at Schmidt Ocean.

Jaena
Just before I wrap up, because this has been playing in my head since you mentioned it, the transition of the ocean and bringing up its popularity through pop culture. Do you have any ideas or any big picture dreams that you would love to establish?

Carlie
Yes, I mean, all of it. I want to see the oceans in pop culture everywhere. You know, you walk into a Target here in the US and you see all kinds of NASA branding on clothing items, like, let’s get the oceans out there. Big concerts on those big screens, when we go back to large concerts, can we have the ocean playing in the background? Like amazing, inspiring imagery. What can we what can we bring to restaurants about sustainable fish and learning more about the ocean as that comes in, how can we get all the writers in Hollywood together to create more stories about the ocean, and more accurate stories. Just being captivated by the wonder and the beauty of it, I think, really can inspire people to be a little bit more positive and proactive about how we learn more and get to a better place.  Please feel free to look me up if you guys have ideas.

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Jaena
As a law student, I spent this month learning about the inaccessibility of legal services and resources. Globally, more than 5 billion people lack meaningful access to justice according to The Justice for All Report, published by a multi-stake partnership between UN member states, international organizations, civil society, and the private sector. The most common ideas to address this issue include public education and understanding of the justice system.

Thanks to Dr. Wiener and the Institute’s work of catalyzing their ocean research and making that data publicly available, we can access information to deepen our understanding of the ocean that plays a vital role in the prosperity of the human race.

So, I’m encouraging myself, and our listeners, to find one thing within our scope of expertise, and to share that discovery with a friend, or stranger, that is completely unfamiliar with the subject. We often forget how much we know, and that someone out there is probably waiting for that chance to learn something new. For me? That’ll be on how to decode overtly complicated legal procedures so everyone is able to exercise their full legal rights.

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We hope you enjoyed the second episode of Deep Dive with SOI! We’d also love to hear your brilliant thoughts on how to tackle ocean’s PR problem. You can reach us on our social media and visit Longitude.site for this episode transcript. Join us next time for more unique insights on Longitude Sound Bytes.