Rachel Carlton
Rice University
Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

featuring Cindy Dinh, Litigation Associate, Mayer Brown LLP, Houston (29.7° N, 95.3° W)

If you’re looking for a way to do it all, ask Cindy Dinh for advice.

Cindy Dinh is a Litigation Associate at Mayer Brown LLP, a global law firm that advises large companies and financial institutions. At Mayer Brown, she practices civil litigation and works directly with clients in issues ranging from contract disputes to bankruptcy and insurance matters. Dinh graduated with a juris doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law and a master in public administration from the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University; as an undergraduate she received a bachelor of arts in sociology and health policy from Rice University. In our video call, I got the opportunity to sit back and listen—suffice to say, Ms. Dinh has quite the resume.

Long before becoming a lawyer at one of the world’s largest law firms, Dinh grew up interested in writing and healthcare and wanted to be a pediatrician. But after realizing in high school that she liked learning about medicine more than the idea of practicing it, she chose to study medical sociology at Rice University. There, Dinh thrived by following her passions both in and out of the classroom. From researching Asian American and Latinx health disparities to volunteering with voter outreach and registration for the Asian American community in Houston, Dinh played an active role in shaping her own interests in public policy. She also volunteered at the Harris County clerk’s office to do outreach work after her senior year, which led to her first job out of college. It surprised me when she said how easy it was to get a job with the clerk’s office, but it also served as a reminder of how often I limited myself in college by not putting myself out there more often.

This was a common theme throughout my conversation with Dinh. I found myself in awe at how much she has been able to accomplish in such a short time in her career and at Rice. As a college student, it’s easy to feel like school material doesn’t feel applicable to the real world, so Dinh’s extracurriculars show the value of getting involved. One program that she participated in ended up shaping her decision to get a public policy degree along with her law degree.

“I knew that I was going to pursue a law and public policy degree, and that came from some of the enrichment programs I participated in my junior year.” Dinh said. “One [program] called PPIA, Public Policy International Affairs motivated me to pursue a joint degree…PPIA’s mission is to get more students from diverse backgrounds into public policy because these are the folks who will eventually make important decisions for our community. [Because] if they don’t reflect the community, then how do we know what [services or programs are] needed?”

As such, after undergraduate school, Dinh sought a public policy degree from Harvard and a law degree from the University of California, Berkeley within a joint degree program. For those looking to wed different interests together, joint degree programs like the one in which Dinh studied allow students to not only graduate with two high-level degrees, but also often allow them to learn in two completely different cities and universities. In Dinh’s case, this meant bracing herself for Boston snow for one year and a half and soaking up the San Francisco sun for two and a half. Because she was only studying for one degree at any given time, she was able to compartmentalize her studies and get the most out of her education for those four years. Importantly, she felt that her time in public policy school helped her gain the people-skills she needed to be successful in her law career.

From there, Dinh went on to do just about everything you’re encouraged to do to land a spot at a prestigious law firm: summer internships at law firms, law school semesters working on a law publication, a clerkship after graduation—her dedication and persistence led her through each and every position. In particular, she said she loved clerking for a judge.

“I would say that it was one of my best… work experiences,” Dinh said. “Time is on your side… We decide[d] the cases on the judge’s time, so if I needed two more weeks to review something because there’s an issue with one of the pleadings, I [could] do that.”

And with the people skills she honed in graduate school, she was able to be more successful as a clerk.

“People skills come from life experiences…[because] no one teaches you how [to] get along with four people in a very close environment,” Dinh said. “It’s you, the judge, another law clerk, the judge’s assistant…you can make or break that experience based on how open you are to your coworkers. In our chambers, we helped each other with editing processes. If I wrote something, my co-clerk was more than happy to review it for me and give me some feedback.”

After clerking, Dinh worked at Susman Godfrey for a year and a half before moving to her current firm, Mayer Brown, where she has been a Litigation Associate for over a year. Her move was steeped in her desire to always try and find a better work-life balance, saying she wants to be “thriving,” not “surviving.” At Mayer Brown, Dinh also has the opportunity to take up more pro bono cases than before, allowing her to continue her love of serving her community. She is currently helping a LGBT woman from Honduras seek asylum and helping a grandmother become a guardian for her grandaughter. Through speaking with Dinh, I was able to see how dynamic a career in law can be and how many different avenues there are for you to have experience with the law. Dinh herself even had a hand in getting legislation passed while at University of California, Berkeley without having a full-fledged juris doctorate—she simply had the drive and compassion to make changes. In terms of what her next adventure might be, Dinh had this to say:

“I have no idea whether I’ll be working at a law firm or maybe in the public sector one day, so I’m keeping those options open. It’s good to be able to do your work, but also not be so tunnel-visioned where you don’t see other opportunities.”

For someone like me, it’s a good reminder that you are in the driver’s seat when it comes to your career.

Highlights from the interview:

How did you spend your summers, because from what I understand about law school, you want to have internships every summer basically?

That’s right. Law school is different in that your first year grades matter for your first year summer internship, and if you go to a private law firm, they usually offer you [a spot] to come back the next summer, so really your first year grades impact two summers of law school. During my first summer, it was popular for you to do two six-week internships a summer. I did six weeks at a law firm called Norton Rose Fulbright, and then six weeks at the U.S. Attorney’s office. [Assistant U.S. Attorneys] are the prosecutors for the government, [so] anytime you have criminal or civil cases, those [are the] attorneys representing the U.S.A. So it was good to see both private and public sector work to see what the differences were and what you need to do to get a job like that.

The second summer I was offered to come back to that same firm for another four weeks, and then I [interned] with a second law firm called Jackson Walker, where I did real estate work. So it was transaction on one side and litigation on the other side. I was offered a full time position there for the next year, but I ended up applying for clerkships, which are a one year or two year opportunity to work with a judge, and I applied to ones here in Houston with the federal court. I ended up working with Judge Gray Miller. He is a UH law alum, and he’s Houston through and through, and it was great to come back here and be able to work with him and also be able to advise him about the cases where essentially you’re getting to read and analyze well-written briefs, you’re performing research and then you’re providing recommendations of how the order should be written. And then you’re ghost-writing the court’s orders. 

Would you be able to give me some examples of different cases that you’ve worked on to get an idea of what specific types of law that you are most interested in?

When I was clerking, my favorite case happened to be a trademark infringement case with SpongeBob SquarePants. An individual in Houston wanted to open up a restaurant in Kemah called the Krusty Krab, spelled with two Ks, and Paramount Pictures and Viacom which owns Nickelodeon and owns SpongeBob SquarePants sued them for a trademark infringement. Viacom argued that they’ve used the Krusty Krab, spelled with two Ks, in their shows for over ten years, and so people who go to that new restaurant may think that it’s associated with Nickelodeon, and would be confused by that. And the restaurant owner responded, “Well, you know I applied for a trademark before you guys ever did.” But in Texas and in the federal law in the Fifth Circuit, the rules are basically, whoever uses the mark first in commerce has the rights, not who applied for the application first. And so that was something that was interesting because both sides had good points, but then the law itself governs who should win in that case. So I wrote an opinion for the Judge, and the restauranteur ended up appealing that opinion to the Fifth Circuit. Later on the Fifth Circuit agreed with the Judge in our case, which I was very happy about. That was a good feeling, especially being able to kind of follow that case from start to finish. Whenever I volunteer with the Houston Bar Association, we’d go to different elementary schools and talk about careers in law, I tell them about the SpongeBob case and they would understand.

What kind of skills do you think are important that aren’t necessarily subject-matter related?

Law, especially litigation, is a people-person type of work. You have clients, you have to communicate with them. So being able to talk to someone and kind of gather information from them without making it feel like an interrogation is a good skill set. You need to lead an informational interview, making it easy for that person to answer your questions.

I would say another skill-set that students particularly could do better with is email communications. For example, if a student wanted to talk to me about careers in law, I’m more than happy to do it, but I may not have the time immediately. So I would hope that the student is the one initiating suggested times to meet up for, let’s say, coffee. They’ll send a calendar invite or email to follow up, saying, “Hey, is today still good for you? I know you’re busy, is it still good to meet at three?” If a student were able to kind of follow up and do that, it makes my life easier to say “Yes,” each time if they want to meet up for coffee to talk about their career or law school or whatever. I think sometimes students send an email and then take a week to respond, which seems unprofessional. It’s important to know the formalities of being able to write email and being appreciative of people’s time. I just hope more people utilize that skill and not be afraid to reach out to somebody else.

Do you have any general advice for a college student looking to be a lawyer?

I always say, figure out what problem you want to solve and what skills you want to build on. For example, if you’re a litigator, you’re writing and researching and ultimately writing to the court. But if you’re a real estate attorney, you wouldn’t need that skill set, or you wouldn’t use it every day. Depending on your specific job or role, you may have to focus on certain skills more than others as well as learn to navigate different tools and resource platforms.

Interview excerpts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability and approved by the interviewee.